Have the events of the last couple of days changed your mind on the Israel/Gaza crisis?

[BaMamma]

Not only, but including, the macabre theatre with the coffins of the Bibas babies, Oded Lifshitz, and, as we now know, a currently anonymous Palestinian woman.

The locked coffins with no keys.

The antisemitic poster of Netanyahu as a blood sucking vampire.

The celebrations in Gaza, happy, joyful people surrounding those coffins., children dancing, parents smiling.

The 'mix-up' over Shiri Bibas body.

The discovery that the babies were murdered, not killed in an airstrike.

Does any of that change your mind about the rightness of your position on Israel and Palestine/Gaza?

The extent of anti-semitism in the Muslim world is downright scary.
(Not all Muslims, obviously.)

@MassiveGoat I have no desire either for this. Yousurely though cannot reasonably expect to post like this, with clear judgement a d not expect a response?

Maybe work on your tone for pist number 6? ☺️

Yes definitely. Do you really not realise that?

Both historically and in current times.

Apart from the obvious one that 1/3 of Jews worldwide (2/3 in Europe and a shocking 90% of those in Poland) were industrially slaughtered in the Holocaust...

Huge amounts of persecution in the Middle ages. Lots of pogroms and murders, which culminated in all English Jews being banished in 1290, 100000 Jews expelled from France in 1396 and thousands expelled from Austria in 1421.

Lots of pogroms, antiJew laws and expulsions in Tsarist Russia. Peter the Great said that he preferred having Muslims and Pagans than Jews, and Alexander the 3rds policy was 'One third will die out, one third will leave the country and one third will be completely dissolved in the surrounding population'.

9 million ethnically cleansed from Middle Eastern and Muslim countries since 1948, but perhaps that's to be expected.

Can you come up with any historic persecution even remotely similar against Muslims??

Current day persecution is similarly much worse against Jews than Muslims.

Even in the UK today, Hate crime numbers in England and Wales to March 2024 show:

Jews: 3282 in a population of 271,000.
That's 1 for every 83 people

Muslims: 3866 in a population of 3.87 million.
That's 1 for every 1000 people

Disabled people: 11719 in a population of 10.4 million.
That's 1 for every 887 people.

Whilst obviously, there should be no hate crimes at all, it shows that Jewish people experience hate crimes 12 times more than Muslims, and disabled people experience hate crimes at a higher rate than Muslims.

Horrifying. Thank you for the information

What makes the statistic that Jewish people are 12 times more likely than Muslims to experience hate crimes in the UK even more surprising is that there have never been any Jewish terror attacks or violence in the UK, and Jewish people don't push their faith on anyone.

In contrast, there have been appalling Islamist terror attacks in the UK, France, Germany and the US in recent years, where civilians have been murdered, and also high-profile murders of teachers and journalists in Europe (non-muslim countries) for insulting Islam.

Whilst of course, Islamists are only a subset of Muslims - and it certainly doesn't excuse hate crimes - it's a pretty stark contrast.

It’s shocking and should be more widely addressed.
Whilst antisemitism has a very long history I think the Corbyn wing of the Labour Party caused a lot of damage. It’s utterly loathsome.

I don’t believe all Palestinians support Hamas.
I don’t think it is possible for them to denounce Hamas in the current circumstances.

I wasn’t aware all Palestinians attended.?
Was there such a huge number there ?
Do you have figures or pictures or anything on that. Please

This attitude is Netanyahus, that all Palestinians are Hamas. He’s been spouting that to justify the bombings and killing of civilians since the very beginning. I find such sweeping statements horrific and extremely misguided in equal measure.

I wasn’t aware all Palestinians attended.?
Was there such a huge number there?

Aerial view from Reuters. I'm no expert but it doesn't look close to 2 million

Edited to add. Sorry picture won't post you can get it on Reuters

100% this

I wasn't aware there was 2 million people there either, thankfully the post has been removed

Very sobering. I hope people read and reflect.

Louder for those in the back!

Anyone saying that Israel should be able to
defend itself with impunity is effectively saying that Britain could commit genocide against the entire Irish population in order to eradicate the IRA. And it isn’t as if the British didn’t give that a good go throughout the course of Anglo - Irish history, but moral standards had risen slightly by the 1970s/80s. The Irish just understand this conflict in a way others don’t.

This is a really important point. Not only have their been no terror attacks of any sort committed by Jews but integration is a religious obligation - as was explained to me by a Jewish friend recently. Makes sense when most of the community has been a diaspora community for so long.

This analogy doesn’t work. There are too many fundamental differences between the two situations.
You’re kidding yourself if you think the Irish have a better understanding of the situation than others .

There is a long list of attacks by Irgun, mostly in then Palestine, but also the British Embassy in Rome. then the Lehi sent letter bombs to the president at the White House. These groups did also blow up trains, use car bombs and kill quite a lot of British as well as Palestinian people. I think they were designated terrorists at the time. I don't know if you are unaware of this bit of history. Of course, it's no reflection on people alive today who had nothing to do with it, but I think you are factually wrong.

I have never posted so extensively on a thread before and reading through again I have to say I don't envy the job of Mumsnet going through all the posts and trying to ensure that very challenging discussion can take place in a safe environment. It must feel like a minefield. I just wanted to say whatever the disagreements I am really grateful to be able to take part on this forum, and thank you to MN.

I am aware that the history goes back much further than 1948. Your response suggests I’m in opposition to an Israeli state or that I’m advocating the murder of Jews — neither of which I said. Nor am I advocating for or in support of Hamas.

I am against any state which commits ethnic cleansing, which I believe Israel to be carrying out. They are clearly stating this is what they intend to and are doing.

You seem disgusted by the acts of Hamas, rightly so, but what about the heinous acts of Israeli soldiers, torturing children and bombing NCIUs so that hundreds of babies rot in incubators? Or burning people alive in refugee tents, or burying children alive under rubble and shooting dead anyone who tries to aid them?

Thousands of Jews, including some prominent intellectuals — take Gabor Maté — are speaking out against Israel’s actions in Gaza. Are they being racist?

If you apply your argument to a similar situation — you are saying that Britain had the right to massacre the entire Irish population because of the actions of a terrorist group such as the IRA. People voted for the IRA remember. That wouldn’t have been acceptable to issue a collective punjshment, so why is it okay to collectively punish the Palestinian people and murder an estimated 60,000 +?

So call me racist by all means, but you’re only deflecting from the truth. I will keep sharing the truth because I believe in universal human rights and I don’t believe the people of Palestine should be treated in as subhuman. Incidentally just as I believe that the Jews and other groups were treated as subhuman during the Holocaust, which we fought against. What is the point of all the human rights that came out of the Second World War, if they are not going to be applied universally? That is what I find disgusting.

I agree on some points, I think because of our history of oppression going back hundreds of years we have more of an affinity with the Palestinians, but there are a lot of differences too, the IRA were not the governing body of Ireland for a start, they were a terrorist group that really had no effect on most of our lives in any way

“If you apply your argument to a similar situation — you are saying that Britain had the right to massacre the entire Irish population because of the actions of a terrorist group such as the IRA. People voted for the IRA remember”

The two situations were actually very different in lots of ways.It’s not a very helpful analogy.

When you say “people voted for the IRA” what exactly do you mean? They were not a political party and they were never a government ( unlike Hamas)
When you refer to “the entire Irish population” are you referring to everyone on the Island of Ireland? Or just the six counties?
When you refer to “ the entire Irish population “ are you including Catholics and Protestants? Republicans and Unionists?
The analogy with Palestine is a lazy one. It doesn’t shed any light on the conflict.

Having said that I do think the bombing of Gaza was excessive and hurt innocent Palestinians more than Hamas.

For once I’m in agreement with you 😉

I really hope there is a greater acknowledgement and acceptance of the increasing level of antisemitism .
The figures from @statsfun are horrifying.
It’s really disgusting when people use Gaza as an excuse for antisemitism- ( and this has happened on here many times) as if all Jewish people everywhere are responsible for whatever Netanyahu does.

I think that Irgun blowing up the British embassy in Rome in 1946 - injuring 3 - has rather less emotional resonance for the average Brit than the more recent and deadly Islamist atrocities.

The 7/7 London transport bombings which killed 52 and injured 700. The Ariana Grande concert bombing which killed 22 (including little children going to their first concert) and injured 139. Or the car attacks on Westminster Bridge (5 dead, 50 injured) and London Bridge (8 killed, 48 injured).

In France, the Nice truck attack on Bastille day 2016 which killed 87 and injured 434, the Bataclan attacks which killed 131 and injured 413 over a horrific night in the centre of Paris, and also the Charlie Hebdo attacks and the teacher murder.

The recent attacks in Germany: the Christmas markets, and then another mother and child killed just a few days ago.

And of course the 3000 killed when Islamists flew planes into the twin tower in 2001. That's changed the experience of flying for everyone.

Of course none of those terrorist atrocities justify any hate against Muslim citizens, who are in no way responsible for the actions of a small number of terrorists and criminals.

But we watched them on TV, not long ago. We were horrified, and afraid for ourselves and our families. They sadly do increase the risk of hate incidents.

The Irgun bombing which injured 3 people in Italy - and even the King David Hotel bombing in Jerusalem which killed 92 - were far away and in 1946: barely within living memory. Irgun hasn't existed since 1948. I wouldn't expect those to cause fear now.