Have the events of the last couple of days changed your mind on the Israel/Gaza crisis?

[BaMamma]

Not only, but including, the macabre theatre with the coffins of the Bibas babies, Oded Lifshitz, and, as we now know, a currently anonymous Palestinian woman.

The locked coffins with no keys.

The antisemitic poster of Netanyahu as a blood sucking vampire.

The celebrations in Gaza, happy, joyful people surrounding those coffins., children dancing, parents smiling.

The 'mix-up' over Shiri Bibas body.

The discovery that the babies were murdered, not killed in an airstrike.

Does any of that change your mind about the rightness of your position on Israel and Palestine/Gaza?

@BambooBambou Yes it is 6 days for applications.
The procession would easily have been an addition, as let's be honest here, these protesters are afforded vast levels of slack for fear of authorities being seen to "side or be Islsmaphobic".
In a decent world, mindful of events this week, you'd think any organisation with any shred of humanity, respect or compassion would revise this abomination, regardless of when it was planned. I remain of the view that this was an ill-judged action, designed to cause harm and distress.
If you believe differently, this is if course your own right, but I woild urge you to reconsider the actual wisdom here. It served no positive purpose and is hugely disrespectful. The 500 days could have been reasonably and powerfully marked without this being included. The connotations are chilling here.

I am aware of this yes, but refer you to my previous posts as to how this was equally interpreted by many.

You are correct 👍🏻
The obvious intent here was to antagonise, which is further unforgivable this week of all weeks. So unnecessary.
I also fail to understand hiw this offers any comfort to those facing losses in Gaza or anywhere else.

At the end of the day you don't need to like it and they don't need your approval. I've found some of the rhetoric from the anti Palestinians extremely distressing this week, imo there has been no humanity, respect or compassion shown by a lot of them towards the death and maiming of 10s of 1000s of people. It's been disgusting to watch the masks dropping. That's my opinion though and anti Palestinians don't need my approval to do as they wish. In a perfect world we would all approve of each others actions, sadly it is far from that.

Maybe it's a vain presumption of yours that has been shown not to be true.
You have designated being Pro Israel as "anti Palestinians", but I daresay you would pretzelize if somebody accused anybody who is Pro Palestian Liberation as anti Israeli/ anti Jewish.

Nobody on this thread has been anti Palestine people.

Words have meanings.

Critique of Hamas, pro Palestine Liberation support/rhetoric/parades/marches and being pro Israel nationhood and right to exist in the place where Jews are in fact indigenous to....none of this is " anti Palestinians".

As for " masks slipping". The majority of Westerners are Pro Israel. That is not some big secret.

The loud and often angry and violent superiority complex having "support" on and offline for Palestine and open anti Semitism from too much of the same quarters appears to have blinded many to that reality.

But being "pro Palestine" has always attracted a certain type of Westerner of any race or creed to.exercising their narcissistic self righteousness that ALWAYS translates into little progression for the Palestinians who do.want prioritisation of the autonomy of legitimised nationhood. Yet too many of the "anti West" Westerners of which I speak are given more credence, clout , accolades and money making opportunities in media, publishing, journalism, tertiary education the longer Palestinians live the way that they do.

For decades I have thought that Palestinians specifically have the worst advocates of any Liberation struggle that I have seen in my time on creation.

Too much poppy show and using of the cause to exorcise oneself in ways that one would be hard pushed to do for anything else and in front of anybody else.

And where heretics are shouted at to read the history, but that history conveniently and usually is only allowed to go back to certain events between 1947-1948 and where Jews are conveniently White , but non Black Arabs are conveniently not, despite them looking similar and both of Middle Eastern Origin as are the Abrahamic religions.

The dissonance is real.

@MassiveGoat it is precisely posts such as yours, full of ill-founded assumptions and self-approved, one directional hatred.

Lete be clear for you:
-I am neither anti-Palestine or anti-Gaza
-All deaths, products of war are worthy of grief.
-I do though have a huge issue with any death being exploited and intentional distress caused in ths very way.
-I do not view Palestinian deaths in any way superior or somehow a more valuable loss of life to others. Given it was led and initiated by the Hamas actions, this war is a direct product of Palestinians standing by in approval of Hamas. We have seen this in the past weeks with the disgraceful scenes of hostages being paraded for media purposes and yes I would like this stopped and question the civilty of anyone seeing value or purpose to these.

I do not seek approval-I seek some vain hope of peace- only achieveable via human and respectful methods.

I made no assumptions about you. I haven't seen your posts in the past few days, I barely use mumsnet. The world outside of mumsnet does exist. I'm not sure why you got so defensive when I mentioned anti Palestinians, it seems a massive leap to assume I was referring to you and your posts in particular as being extremely distressing?

For decades I have thought that Palestinians specifically have the worst advocates of any Liberation struggle that I have seen in my time on creation.

You start to understand this when you realise that a lot of the supposed support for the Palestinian Liberation struggle isn't about helping the Palestinians: it's about harming the Jews. Not all of it, but a lot. To be generous, some is probably unconcious anti-semitism rather than deliberate sabotage.

Any time you find yourself wondering 'why', try shifting your perspective.

Why do thousands march for Gaza every week, but not for Sudan where there is an actual genocide going on?

Why do Palestinians have their very own UN refugee agency, and have refugee status passed down the generations - even when they were born in a different country - unlike all the other millions of refugees fleeing war zones in the rest of the world?

Why did the armies of 6 Arab nations invade Israel in 1948, when all those nations (except Egypt) were newly formed, and they had ignored other contested new borders between eg Turkey and Syria and the ethnic cleansing of the Armenians from Turkey?

Why would Israel's new borders somehow 'not count', when so many borders worldwide were being redefined at the time, including a large chunk of Germany being given to Poland just 3 years earlier (with 16.5 million Germans ethnically cleansed from their former homes)?

In so many ways, the Palestinians are treated as exceptional. Not that it's helped them: it's made their lives so, so much worse.

It makes more sense when you realise that it isn’t the Palestinians who are considered exceptional, it's the Jews. Deep anti-semitism, over-riding anything else.

@DoubleShotEspresso you say the connotations are chilling, but what I find chilling is that you call a march to remember thousands of lost or destroyed lives "an abomination." I wasn't at this march, but I have attended similar gatherings, where the names of those who have been killed (or rather, some of them) have been read out. It's incredibly moving and it is an important a way of remembering them. It is an important part of being human to honour those who have passed. Yet you say that the march "served no useful purpose." Imagine if I said that about an event to honour the victims of the Hamas attacks. There has been no evidence presented whatsoever to support assertions that the march was intended to mock those held hostage and their families. Past posters have explained why this was not the case. You should not cast aspersions like this without being able to back them up with fact. It's dangerous.

This. Every word.

Great post @statsfun And yes, the answer to the question of 'why' is painfully obvious. And I think sadly it's this which has led Israel to go increasingly further to the right.

@MassiveGoat

At the end of the day you don't need to like it and they don't need your approval. I've found some of the rhetoric from the anti Palestinians extremely distressing this week, imo there has been no humanity, respect or compassion shown by a lot of them towards the death and maiming of 10s of 1000s of people. It's been disgusting to watch the masks dropping. That's my opinion though and anti Palestinians don't need my approval to do as they wish. In a perfect world we would all approve of each others actions, sadly it is far from that.

Your words/your post, addressed to me was abundantly clear.
And yes the world thankfully is bigger and I genuinely hope one day better than the world of MN.

imo there has been no humanity, respect or compassion shown by a lot of them

If I was talking about you I wouldn't have said a lot of them, I would have said 'a lot of you' or 'just you'. I would have thought that that was abundantly clear, obviously not.

The reason I addressed you was because you were the one talking about finding something of poor taste. I was just saying how I too have found things of poor taste but people are allowed to express themselves how they wish, even if we may find it gross.

Look, I've no desire to get into this with you, you are obviously very defensive for reasons only you know. Apologies if you thought 'a lot of them' was 'you' . It really wasn't, I don't know you from Adam and have read a grand total of about 5 posts of yours.

A good post. Thought provoking.

And yet it’s assuming the only reason people care for the Palestinian situation is because everyone who does so is an anti semite. Which is putting the Jewish people on a pedestal of some sort. as if they are in some way special to get such attention. They really aren’t!

People really don’t care, they care for the lives of those being killed in Palestine.

let’s not forget this is the work of Netanyahu and his far right followers.

Both hamas and Israel are war criminals.

Palestinians deserve to live peacefully on their lands.

Israel deserves to live peacefully in their land.

Their govts are not allowing this, by inciting hatred against each other.

I'm sad for all the innocent children lost, on both sides.

Netanyahu grinning like a maniac when Trump stood next to him, talking about wiping out Palestine to turn it into some kind of macabre holiday destination was sickening. How he can agree with stealing palenstinian land like this I don't know.

Hamas building their govt on the idea of killing Jews is barbaric. Both sides have zero moral high ground here.

I did say "Not all of it, but a lot"

I don't understand why there is so much deeply-entrenched antisemitism in the world: and has been, all through history. It makes no sense to me.

But likewise, I don't have to understand why gravity exists to observe that the apple always falls.

You didn't read it, did you? Thats exactly not what she said.

I read it. Of course. It is exactly the conclusion. Hidden in plain sight, we are not stupid we see it!

deep anti semitism overriding everything else !!!! ……a shocking conclusion to make.

The situation in Sudan isn't even half as discussed in the news etc as the Gaza situation is. Israel receive huge amounts of support from other countries including the USA.

The idea that the majority of support for Palestine stems from antisemitism is completely patronising and dismisses the main concern of people which is the complete power imbalance in terms of wealth and military power.

What do you mean hidden in plain sight? You are implying @statsfun is in some way attempting to deceive. Her post was pretty straightforward and easy to understand yet still you misunderstood.

She said 'a lot of the supposed support for the Palestinian Liberation struggle isn't about helping the Palestinians: it's about harming the Jews. Not all of it, but a lot. To be generous, some is probably unconcious anti-semitism rather than deliberate sabotage.'

You read that as 'assuming the only reason people care for the Palestinian situation is because everyone who does so is an anti semite'

Which is patently not what she said. She said that deep antisemitism overrode other factors which explicitly means there are other things going on. You dont override nothing. She also evidenced her conclusion. You dismiss it with no evidence to back your position up. Why so quick to dismiss it?

Are people realistically more inclined to be antisemitic than anti-Islam?

The past few days have made me feel more strongly than ever that the non-Hamas Gazans need to be the ones to wrestle back control.

Hamas is on some bizarre propaganda spree, having Evyatar David and Guy Gilboa-Dalal at the release was just unexpected awful. It's obviously only Hamas families attending, however it is going to affect all in Gaza.

The only people who can go against Hamas other than the IDF are non-Hamas civilians. It's not fair, it's horrible for them but by not rising against Hamas, things can't change.

Israel isn't going to stop. She wants her people back, I can understand that. The quickest way to do that is to give back the hostages and remove Hamas. Israel has no end of dissent against Netanyahu, Gazans need to dissent against Hamas if they want a pre-October 7 lifestyle.

I'm not putting blame on Gazans for not rebelling against Hamas. I can only imagine how brutal reprisals would be. It's a hard choice, and I'm sorry for the whole situation.

If Israel wants her people back Netanyahu not confirming to the ceasefire agreements ( of which there has been many contraventions ) and not releasing the 600 plus detainees in Israeli jails really doesn’t help that.
He is putting peoples lives in more danger.

He and his minions need to stick to the deal!

Not attempting to deceive. No. Far from it.