Have the events of the last couple of days changed your mind on the Israel/Gaza crisis?

[BaMamma]

Not only, but including, the macabre theatre with the coffins of the Bibas babies, Oded Lifshitz, and, as we now know, a currently anonymous Palestinian woman.

The locked coffins with no keys.

The antisemitic poster of Netanyahu as a blood sucking vampire.

The celebrations in Gaza, happy, joyful people surrounding those coffins., children dancing, parents smiling.

The 'mix-up' over Shiri Bibas body.

The discovery that the babies were murdered, not killed in an airstrike.

Does any of that change your mind about the rightness of your position on Israel and Palestine/Gaza?

Why 500 days of genocide, instead of war?
Who gathered around and decided that on day one, Gazan fatalities in this war( started by Hamas) would be categorised as genocide?
You complain about a lack of context being exhibited in commentary on this thread, but provide none in your post as to why this war started by Hamas with the approval of too many Gazans has been renamed as "500 days of genocide".

That's the title of the march which I mentioned to show that it wasn't intended to be about the specific events that this thread is about, not because I'm myself calling it genocide, if you see what I mean. I should have used quotation marks. But well bluntly that's how they see it, and while it not be agreed on universally, it's not a completely wild, far-out view - the ICJ have been called on to consider this, and Amnesty asserts that Israel's actions amount to genocide, for example.

I suppose calling it, "500 days of Hamas and Isreal at war", doesn't appeal to them?
They don't want to admit Hamas organised it and are within many of their family and friend groups.

Me too.

The word doesn't travel well no. In this context I found it sinister.

Ironically, the most genocidal acts in the last 500 days were the October 7th atrocities committed by Hamas.

Probably not what the marchers are thinking of.

@BambooBambou
I found the hijab being white a sinister/ghoulish reference to the poor mother of those babies, whose body was "mistaken ". It's not the fact it's a hijab- it's the inference and connotations. There would not typically be a female leading a Muslim funeral procession,so I found this an inflammatory reference.
I have no issue acknowledging the dead in Gaza.
I do though have serious issues with this as it's clearly antisemitic and deeply offensive.
The word martyr also is extremely worrying here.

You are aware the colour of mourning in Islam is white?

@Hollyhobbi
I am yes.

But again do not at all believe this was the point. It's hideously disrespectful and dismissive to Jews everywhere to use this imagery just days after the bodies of hostages were released with such wicked and horrific circumstances of death. Cruel to the families still waiting to have their loved ones returned.
Horrific.

What imagery? Literally the imagery of a funeral (although not an actual funeral). Are they not allowed to grieve? How is that disrespectful to Jews everywhere (fortunately I also have friends who are Jewish who would disagree)? Also - the niqab is white as it is the Palestinian keffiyeh.

What imagery? Literally the imagery of a funeral (although not an actual funeral). Are they not allowed to grieve?

This is incredibly disingenious. They're not grieving, they're mocking. The disrespectful bastards could have taken one weekend off under the circumstances, but oh no. Just the same way the PSC was getting permission for a march while terrorists were literally still on their 7 October killing spree.

2 Palestinian children were shot in the back and killed yesterday in the West Bank by the IDF. They deserve to be mourned and remebered, they mattered. Rimas a 13 year old girl and Ayman a 12 year old boy, 2 children whose deaths will no doubt leave a huge hole not just in their families but in their wider community. Those 2 children will have had so many hopes and dreams for their futures, their families will have had hopes and dreams for them, that has been brutally taken away from them. Unfortunately for Palestinians there are no 'weekends off' from being killed. May Rimas and Ayman rest in peace.

The funeral march represented real people in real life who died - thousands of children and adults in fact. It was planned in advance, so obviously not staged to mock what happened on Thursday and to suggest otherwise is disingenuous. The event was to mark 500 days. Permissions hard to get/routes to plan etc. I would imagine it would be hard to rearrange - but also I am not sure why should they? The people at the march were not the people in the footage of the scenes in Gaza that this post is about, and not responsible for their actions. Everyone's losses matter.

I’m not seeing the antisemitism here. This looks like a peaceful protest/vigil. People went out and waved Israeli flags when bombs were killing thousands of children and nobody saw that as mocking. because it wasn’t meant to be mocking.

I don’t see how wearing a keffiyeh would represent a Jewish woman either. I really don’t.

@ArtTheClown thank-you for articulating this so brilliantly.

It's incredible that this needs explaining to functioing adults honestly.

@BambooBambou

I strongly disagree with your points here.

For clarity, nobody has stated that anybody is not entitled to grieve.

If you honestly believe this was planned prior to the Bibas family being subjected to disgraceful levels of torture this week, you must be more than a little naive. This whole scene absolutely is inflammatory, designed to cause distress and anguish where no more was needed.

We can all accept that the losses incurred from both sides are worthy of grief. Nobody disputes that.

But parading in this sick method at this time is beyond distasteful and antisemitic. I have many Jewish friends and family who are deeply sickened by this, you can surely appreciate why.

I don't think civilians who have been in Gaza could possibly be unaffected by the huge loss of life and suffering. No family will be without loved ones. In years to come we will be listening to the accounts from survivors and wondering how anyone could live through such unspeakable horrors. In that setting, death takes on a different meaning. What seems terribly sad about all this is the way the atrocities committed by the establishment on both sides has so traumatised ordinary citizens that their capacity to comprehend the other side as 'human' has been eroded. Of course, this diminishes their own humanity.

It's not the time to judge civilians on either side. The killing needs to stop. It is the answer to nothing.

This is not the first time a funeral procession has been held for those in killed in Palestine. I would say given the history of funeral processions being held to remember those lost it is very likely that this had been planned in advance. This is just 2 examples from a quick Google search that anybody could do if they wanted to.

https://www.newsflare.com/video/685081/a-vigil-for-palestine-moves-through-londons-westminster-honouring-41-000-gazans-killed-in-the-israel-hamas-war?origin=honouring

https://www.newsflare.com/video/618705/pro-palestine-protester-wheels-coffin-in-london-as-death-toll-in-gaza-reaches-23-000-people?origin=coffin

"If you honestly believe this was planned prior to the Bibas family being subjected to disgraceful levels of torture this week." You have to apply to the police for permission to hold a march 6 days in advance.

A martyr in Islam is someone who has been slain unjustly, or who has given their own life to protect others. So innocent people being killed in a war, or the young man who tried to save his friends by throwing live grenades back out of a bunker as terrorists threw them in, mothers dying shielding their children... They would be martyrs, and granted Jannat al-Firdaus (heaven). Murdering terrorists don't qualify, although they like to think they do.

Sorry - you have to apply at least 6 working days in advance. And to use the road you also have to have permission from the council. And given that this was to be held specifically to mark 500 days, yes, I do believe this was planned in advance of the events at the end of this week.

White is a colour of mourning in Islam, and used almost universally for shrouds for our loved ones.

@Scirocco Would it be correct to understand the meaning as 'innocents'? In English I think 'martyr' is often understood as dying for one's beliefs, such as Protestants being burned at the stake by the Catholic Queen Mary I. In fact, I do associate the word martyr with childhood books of the Saints. I think it might have that association in countries with a Christian history. More recently I've heard the word used as being martyred for a cause. I suppose that also means people link the word with political actions and beliefs. I do have a sense that the English translation to martyr has a different meaning to what is meant by the Arabic word.

It's perfectly possible that the march was planned ahead of time, and the coffin was a last minute addition. Clearly they aren't unaware of the link that will be made, and they haven't used it as a symbol previously. How you interpret that is an individual thing I guess.

Edited for mistake.

Apologies, I hadn't seen that they had done this before.

Returning for a late response.
Youve probably seen the news by now anyway
Palestinian Families waiting all of yesterday and through the night in terrible weather for their loved ones and no releases.
Netanyahu and his far right Government went into discussions yesterday ( the day of the releases) in order to hatch a plan for what happens next with the second stage of the ceasefire.
Intel reports noted that he wouldn’t want to continue as it would mean him pulling out further from areas within Gaza, which it’s obvious he has never had any intention of doing.
So delay delay,tell the families nothing and leave them and the detainees waiting.
Let’s also not forget the families of hostages will also be suffering further without the knowledge of when and if theirs will return.( Hamas did, of course, release hostages as their side of the agreement …Israels re,ease of over 600 did not and still has not )

Todayhe is using the excuse that he doesn’t want any further displays when hostages are returned and certainly those terrible images we saw when the coffins were returned was appalling. But this is just Netanyahu making excuses as everyone was already reporting on the meeting prior to that and the unlikelihood of the IDF pulling out.
Remember the Israeli Govn previously did not allow any celebrations when they returned detainees from prison and people were banned from speaking of their treatment at the hands of their jailers. One can only guess what has been happening to over 600 in prison whilst waiting to be let free. We may never know, they and their families are in danger if they speak of it.

Meanwhile the tanks have moved in and a further 40,000 Palestinians have been thrown out of their homes. The settlers continue their incursions and their animals,s have been put out to eat the food growing on Palestinians land.
See the news, a ceasefire is never really a ceasefire for one side in this war.