To think Trump is unhinged

[Loveumagenta]

As well as dangerous? He wants to help the Israelis in their ethnic cleansing of Gaza and own it so he can turn it into a holiday destination with the Palestinians packed off somewhere.

His greed really knows no bounds.

YABU - it’s a great idea, can’t wait to go to the new ‘riviera’!

YANBU - his threats to other countries and dangerous for the world.

So we are better off with a man who boasts about grabbing women’s pussies and wants to ethically clean a place to create a resort? You are happier with a personality disordered sociopath? Is that what you are suggesting?

He protected women’s sports and signed an EO getting TIM out of women’s prisons.

this is what I voted for, among other things.

Either Trump is actually mad - how could this plan ever work without the consent of Middle East neighbours to take in the displaced Palestinians - or he’s up to something else.

Jeremy Bowen on the BBC suggested he wants to strike a nuclear deal with Iran. But he can only make overtures to the Iranians by throwing a bone to Israel’s far right (albeit a bone with no meat).

So you can just ignore the depraved criminality then? the sex assaults? the dangerous racism and bigotry? the attacks on democracy and your constitution?

Your comment, and the ' well something has to be done' replies about ethnic cleansing and turning a nations homeland into a seaside resort make me sick to the stomach.

You couldn’t really have expected me
to vote for Harris?

The Biden admin literally gave taxpayer money to Christian charities to support resettlement of Haitians (among others) near to my hometown, changing the character of these communities overnight. Now Democrats were doing this stuff for years but it had really accelerated over the past four years.

I don’t want this anymore. Harris was not believable on the border issue.

As for Gaza, I’ll take a wait and see. I don’t know how it will take shape but there is no way Israel is gonna tolerate a hostile group on their borders anymore, are they? You need to be realistic about what can happen here.

We’ll see if Saudi et al can devise an alternative plan that will be acceptable.

FWIW I don’t want to spend American money on Gaza nor do I want American troops to secure it. I am skeptical of Trump’s plans here BUT handing control to Palestinians is a nonstarter.

Setting aside Trump's insanity, what would be the best outcome for the Gazans?

• Retain the status quo: uninhabitable cities and Hamas in charge who uses them like human shields. Not good, especially with Israel sidelining UNWRA.
• Restart the two-state solution with someone else trustworthy in charge (who?).
• Full takeover by Israel; they become Israeli citizens. There's no trust or justice on either side to make this work and no appetite either.
• Ethnic cleansing of Gaza and dumping the Palestinians in another country: fuck no. They are people, not cattle.

I would be interested to know what the Gazans think the next step should be. They're the only ones who haven't been asked.

Scathing attack on Trump's Gaza proposals by the Financial Times editorial team today. It's one of the few newspapers I trust these days to give a half decent vaguely impartial account of matters. I get a subscription through work.

They say that his plan is reckless, would violate all international normal conventions, would back track on his own promise to his electorate to stay out of international turmoil and affairs. That forcible removal of a population would amount to ethnic cleansing and absurd anyway as it appears that the states that Trump thinks would accept these poor souls were not in on the plan and have poopooed the proposal.

FT are hoping that this is some huge bluster, a cynical negotiating ploy in his quest to secure a deal between Saudi Arabia and Israel, while pressuring regional states to take responsibility for Hamas-controlled Gaza. But
he is ignoring the obvious point that what is need is peaceful and patient long-term resolution of the Arab-Israeli conflict. Not emptying the land of Gaza of its people to build resorts on it’s Mediterranean coast.

@RingoJuice "As for Gaza, I’ll take a wait and see. I don’t know how it will take shape but there is no way Israel is gonna tolerate a hostile group on their borders anymore, are they? You need to be realistic about what can happen here.

But you appear to condone a hostile power (Israel) not only being on the border of Palestine, but actually physically occupying the country, bombing it and killing thousands of civilians there.

We’ll see if Saudi et al can devise an alternative plan that will be acceptable.

Acceptable to who? Who gets to say what happens in Palestine if not the Palestinians themselves?

FWIW I don’t want to spend American money on Gaza nor do I want American troops to secure it. I am skeptical of Trump’s plans here BUT handing control to Palestinians is a nonstarter."

Under international law, Palestinians are already lawfully control Gaza. Demanding that they leave, and using force to implement this, is a war crime.

America, and Trump in particular, doesn't get to play God and decide who lives where. This isn't the 19th century when countries sent their armies in to slaughter the inhabitants or push them into camps or on to reservations. 95% of the world's population are not Americans, as the US will discover if any hostile American forces land in Palestine (or Panama, Greenland or Canada).

Wow,

OK..

Well, yes, I would have voted for the candidate who wasn't insane, bigoted , corrupt and a sex offender. If I couldn't bring myself to do that I wouldn't have voted at all and had a clear conscience.

" The Biden admin literally gave taxpayer money to Christian charities to support resettlement of Haitians (among others) near to my hometown, changing the character of these communities overnight. Now Democrats were doing this stuff for years but it had really accelerated over the past four year"

Ah, are these the ones eating the cats and dogs?

So some people that aren't like you have moved near you? supported by Christian charities so that must be a good thing?

Your comments on Palestine are just pure ignorance, but another poster has addressed those.

I'm sorry but I find your view point absolutely abhorrent. No decent person would vote for Trump, and yes I mean that 77 million Americans have no sense of common decency.

Can't get over that women would vote for this crooked waffling narcissist just on the basis he voted to keep men out of women's sports etc- what about the Palestinian women who have lost families and homes and may well do so again - clearly they don't matter as not white , wealthy Connecticut types -I'm not pro trans dominance either but no way could I vote for Trump or his type

But you appear to condone a hostile power (Israel) not only being on the border of Palestine, but actually physically occupying the country, bombing it and killing thousands of civilians there.
We’ll see if Saudi et al can devise an alternative plan that will be acceptable.
Acceptable to who? Who gets to say what happens in Palestine if not the Palestinians themselves

I don’t condone what Israel does. Neither do I think America has any power to change that. You know Israel has nukes right?

Under international law, Palestinians are already lawfully control Gaza. Demanding that they leave, and using force to implement this, is a war crime

You can say this, but you can’t enforce it. That’s the issue.

America, and Trump in particular, doesn't get to play God and decide who lives where

Fine. Then Israel will decide. Is that what you want?

So some people that aren't like you have moved near you? supported by Christian charities so that must be a good thing

I think Christian charities have done a lot of harm actually. Not just in America. And no, I’m not Christian before u ask.

Nobody asked if we wanted people from Haiti, one of the most violent, chaotic countries in the world, settled in our communities. And we have every right to say NO.

Palestinians would understand. It literally just happened to them. And now there’s no way to reverse it.

Israel doesn't get to decide either, the Palestinian people do that

Israel doesn't get to decide either, the Palestinian people do that

Like I said, on a moral level sure (at least, pre-Oct 7).

But who’s gonna enforce that?

Agree. What's the mechanism for the gazans to express their opinion and put forward their plan? Last time they were asked they elected Hamas. The ceasefire was negotiated with Hamas, but we all agree Hamas cant stay in charge, right? How do they get past that? Who supports the process without being 'colonialist'?

“The ceasefire was negotiated with Hamas, but we all agree Hamas cant stay in charge, right? How do they get past that? Who supports the process without being 'colonialist'?”

The International Criminal Court has issued warrants for arrests of Hamas leaders months ago.

But it has also issued a warrant for arrest of Israel’s leader Netanyahu - 8 months ago

We should also be asking who is going to replace Israel’s far right leader and far right cabinet ministers.

More moderate heads are desperately needed on both sides.

And surprise surprise, just hours ago, Trump has signed another one of his executive orders - this time to sanction the International Criminal Court.

His announcement will hopefully make the Middle Easten countries come up with some practical solutions themselves.

Gaza needs rebuilding. Questions needing answers ..
Who will pay?
Who will be the labour force?
Where will all those displaced people live peacefully and safely for ten years?
Where will the Palestinians live in ten years?
Will some be hosting and running the Gaza Riviera?

Obviously the Israeli people will decide who leads Israel when they vote in their next election. What else do you expect to happen?

So lets get back to the more difficult question of who leads gaza where in the last election over 20 years ago Hamas was voted in. What now?

I think that just as the Israeli people select another leader, so too can the Palestinians.

Or will other governments try to force a leader on them? One of those puppet leaders that never work out.

You make the two systems sound equivalent, but they arent. Israel is a democracy, Gaza is not. What is the mechanism for palestinians to choose another leader? They have little culture or experience of democracy, opposition to hamas has hardly had the opportunity to develop. What if they choose hamas again? Maybe the involvement of other governments is necessary to support an internal peace process (e.g northern ireland).

“They have little culture”

????

Culture of democracy.

If Im wrong, explain. Its generally quite hard to reestablish democratic mechanisms where they've not existed effectively for nearly a generation. But I'd be glad to be wrong.

Is there even any viable leadership outside Hamas? tbh this is why another Arab power will probably need to administer it. Saudi is the most ambitious so they are a good choice imo.