American proposal to clear out Gaza

[Daftasabroom]

Trump is proposing to "clear out" Gaza.

https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2025/01/25/politics/trump-gaza-strip-jordan-egypt

So USA is actually proposing that the Gaza Strip should be cleared of Palestinians. 1.5 million people.

It wouldn't be peace. You would just spread hamas to other places where they can gather supporters from the country and surrounding ones, causing more havoc but spread out

Mass movement into refugee camps is definitely a recipe for disaster.

How about a small, well-supported youth migration scheme. Up to 50,000 young people (2% of the population) a year sponsored into a fully supported relocation into one of 5 friendly countries (10k for each country, which is surely manageable) with 3 years living expenses, vocational training organised, and citizenship of that country at the end of the 3 years.

Their side of the agreement would be giving up right of return (in return for the new citizenship). There has to be closure, or this will never end. And probably not allowed to return to visit at all for 5-10 years (to stop it being co-opted by Hamas). So there would be personal cost, but still an incredible opportunity. Plenty of people risk their lives in small boats for much less.

Old people are stuck to old ways, but young people everywhere are ambitious for their own future.

In 10 years time, everyone will know of an older sibling with a good job and life. What do you think that generation of 12 year olds will aspire to then? Being a Hamas martyr (their only option currently)? Or being a motorcycle mechanic in Turkey/a nurse in Cairo?

That's the kind of deal the Palestinians could negotiate right now. If anyone had their actual interests at heart. And in a generation, Gaza would be de-radicalised.

@statsfun you've then taken the brightest and best young people who could be rebuilding things at home. And not everyone will be able to migrate - what happens when people aspire to things they can't have? How about creating opportunities so that young people can train as mechanics and nurses in Gaza to both give themselves a livelihood and support their own communities.

What if 50k people don’t want to leave their country permanently?

@gloriagloria They had opportunities to train as mechanics and nurses in Gaza before October 7th.

They were still radicalized, in a stew of anti-semitic hate. They still committed the October 7th atrocities, starved and tortured the hostages they kidnapped, and continued to attack Israel to their maximum ability. At least 30% of Gazans still support Hamas, and support continuing to fight Israel.

This would give some individuals a chance at a different future - in a less radicalized environment. It would also starve the terrorist mob of money and martyrs, gradually weakening their hold, so that eventually even the people remaining could possibly be deradicalized too. Education would also have to be overhauled.

A deal implies benefits to both sides. Usually costs to both sides too. You have to accept the cost to get the benefit. Expensive opportunities for individual Gazans in return for a chance to deradicalize Gaza and loosen Hamas hold.

Or you can just leave them all to it, in worsening conditions. That's worked well so far.

Likewise if Gazans prefer to stay, @easterisland . If they prefer to continue to fight - rather than taking an opportunity for a future (and accepting the cost that goes with that) - it just continues to get worse and worse.

It was a suggestion. Let's see whether the Arab states have a better one.

I'm not sure the situation in Gaza can be resolved until the occupation in the West Bank and East Jerusalem is ended. The 2021 bombing of Gaza seemed to stem from violence around the Al Aqsa mosque, and rockets seem to be fired after violence in the West Bank. The Palestinians regard themselves as one people, wherever they live in the occupied territories, and the occupied territories are all one Palestinian state according to 67 borders. It would be better, I think, to realise that Gaza is not a separate state and people, but part of a fractured whole. This does mean ending occupation, but it doesn't seem to have worked well so far.

No, it hasn't worked well so far, has it? When Israel withdrew from Gaza, Hamas plotted the October 7th atrocities.

Israel will increase their protective measures now, not decrease them. There is no other rational action.

Maybe you're right, and there is no hope at all.

That Guardian article from the other day has me wondering if there is any hope at all really. When more than half of Gazans don't believe Israel should exist they have an unlimited recruitment pool. If it's not Hamas it'll be some other group. How to teach them not to hate? And how to expect Israel not to hate in return? It feels impossible.

I do think that increasing their security response is absolutely necessary. As I understand, there were warnings and failures which allowed Oct 7th to happen, and things need to be tightened up so it does not happen again. I do not think allowing workers into Israel was a good idea. If I was Israel I would seal the border entirely, so there is no travel between Israel and Gaza. I would also stop all travel between the West Bank and Israel, and remove all Israeli settlements and army. Basically entirely close down the borders and leave each other alone.

I think, while Israel withdrew from Gaza, they also maintained control of everything that went in and out, and also controlled fishing areas in the sea. Effectively one could be shot for going too far out to sea. So, I expect this is why it was still considered occupied. I also think that settler violence and violence in the West Bank would set off rockets from Gaza, as they do not consider themselves a separate entity. This is why I commented that occupation in any part of the proposed Palestinian state is an issue.

I really don't think you have the measure of Palestinian hatred if you think that Israel withdrawing completely from Gaza and the WB, sealing the borders and stopping Israel import controls would stop their attacks on Israel.

There's really no reason to believe that, apart from Westerners projecting their own belief system and wishes onto the Palestinians. It certainly doesn't match past behaviour.

It doesn't really matter though, because stopping import controls would put Israel's main population centres at too high risk for them to consider it.

As I said, I'll wait to hear what the Arab states suggest, but without much hope. I think that the world will change - as it does over time - creating different problems and different solutions - before this one gets solved.

@statsfun I do believe it could work. Israelis and Palestinians would have practically zero contact, the international community could provide incentives to both parties to keep peace, and over time friendlier relations could be established. The whole region could bloom in co-operation and each party would work on the flourishing of their own territories. They can't do it alone, the world needs to help. I accept your disagreement, but I don't think things are hopeless yet.

Why can’t they have a future in Gaza? Why is it Gaza = radicalise and be ethnically cleaned = happy future ? Can’t you see that you might be using hate speech in your comment? Are you aware that not everyone in Gaza is a terrorists? That there are nurses and mechanics that want to live in peace as well in Gaza.?

Words.
Wasn't that what was attempted with Gaza?

I actually believe there needs to be contact between the 2 groups in order to stop the hatred. There was a system of community courts after the Rwandan genocide where Hutu and Tutsi sat down together and discussed what had happened and even apologized. I haven't had time to look this up, it was something along these lines. But reconciliation of a sort has been achieved, after as heinous crimes as have taken place in Gaza. Strong leadership was needed to ensure this happened tho. I don't think we have that here.

I do think we could look to Rwanda though.

I think it's too soon for reconciliation talks. First, the violence must stop. The best way to ensure this is to cease all contact/relations between the parties and give incentives to both to keep peace. As a last resort, sanctions, but I prefer a positive approach. It may sound drastic, but it's less drastic than killing people.

No, it wasn't attempted with Gaza, due to regular bombing and a blockade. Also, settler and army aggression in the West Bank is an attack on Gaza, as they are one people.

But it was attempted with Gaza. There was to be no / minimal contact between the 2. That's why Gaza was 'cleansed' of Jewish Israelis. The blockade had to be there to stop weapons getting in etc. The 'incentives' were used to buy weapons, not to enrich Gazans. It absolutely has been tried and it's failed because too many people in Gaza hate Israel. And some in Israel hate back in return. And Israel has to defend herself against hate attacks.

It's time to try something new.

@statsfun ** "They had opportunities to train as mechanics and nurses in Gaza before October 7th" - yes and many of them did (I know a few), but others didn't have that much in the way of opportunities. Broadening opportunities can only be a good thing, but doesn't have to be abroad.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2025/feb/13/rabbis-ad-trump-gaza-plan

I don't think it was applied correctly in Gaza. I believe, as I said, the blockade restricted items such as food, medical equipment and building materials which badly affected the health and economy of the population. It restricted fishing and farming materials. It did not seem to prevent the entry of weapons, so I'd say it was ineffective and detrimental to good relations. In addition, attacks on the people in the West Bank and East Jerusalem are tantamount to attacks on Gaza, as I explained, so this further destroyed good relations. Pragmatically, allowing people to enter Gaza as labour was also a failure to keep contact to a minimum, and given the poor relationship between Israel and Palestine, was unwise.

I think, as they have no recourse to immigrant labour, they train their own surgeons, architects, engineers and nurses and mechanics?

There is more than that Guardian article to wonder about. The problem is not that a majority of Palestinians believe Israelis should not exist. That is a very one sided view.

Israel/ Netanyahu, does not agree that Palestian should have their own state. That means on one level believing they ‘should not exist’ (according to Israelis’ own reaction when anyone suggests a single Israeli-Palestinian state).

But more than that, the the founding ideas of Netanyahu’s Likud Party were stated in terms that preclude Palestine’s existence:

The Right of the Jewish People to the Land of Israel (Eretz Israel)

a. The right of the Jewish people to the land of Israel is eternal and indisputable and is linked with the right to security and peace; therefore, Judea and Samariawill not be handed to any foreign administration; between the Sea and the Jordan there will only be Israeli sovereignty.

b. A plan which relinquishes parts of western Eretz Israel, undermines our right to the country, unavoidably leads to the establishment of a "Palestinian State," jeopardizes the security of the Jewishpopulation, endangers the existence of the State of Israel. and frustrates any prospect of peace.
https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/original-party-platform-of-the-likud-party

As to polls, one from the Pew Centre Washington 2015 found this view among Israelis,
as reported here by The Times of Israel:

Nearly half of Jewish Israelis agree that Arabs should be expelled or transferred from Israel, and a solid majority (79 percent) maintain that Jews in Israel should be given preferential treatment, according to a Pew Research Center in Israel survey published on Tuesday.

The poll, with 5,601 in-person interviews of Israeli adults, conducted between October 2014 and May 2015, found that Israeli Jews increasingly believe the West Bank settlements help, rather than hurt, Israel’s security – and most (61%) believe Israel was given by God to the Jewish people.

^Nearly half of Jewish Israelis agree that Arabs should be expelled or transferred from Israel, and a solid majority (79 percent) maintain that Jews in Israel should be given preferential treatment, according to a Pew Research Center in Israel survey published on Tuesday.
The poll, with 5,601 in-person interviews of Israeli adults, conducted between October 2014 and May 2015, found that Israeli Jews increasingly believe the West Bank settlements help, rather than hurt, Israel’s security – and most (61%) believe Israel was given by God to the Jewish people.^
https://www.timesofisrael.com/plurality-of-jewish-israelis-want-to-expel-arabs-study-shows/
…….
Here is a rabbi at a Jewish pre-military yeshiva 2019 instructing and inspiring students showing that there are extremist religious fanatics in Israel too:

^“The gentiles will want to be our slaves. Being a slave to a Jew is the best. They’re glad to be slaves, they want to be slaves,” he told a class in one of the video clips. “Instead of just walking the streets and being stupid and violent and harming each other, once they’re slaves, their lives can begin to take shape.”

“All around us, we are surrounded by peoples with genetic problems. Ask a simple Arab ‘where do you want to be?’ He wants to be under the occupation. Why? Because they have genetic problems, they don’t know how to run a country, they don’t know how to do anything. Look at them.”

In the lecture, Kashtiel goes on to embrace racism against non-Jews.

“Yes, we’re racists. We believe in racism… There are races in the world and peoples have genetic traits, and that requires us to try to help them,” he said. “The Jews are a more successful race.”
TRIGGER WARNING
In another clip from the Bnei David Yeshiva published by Channel 13, Rabbi Giora Redler can be heard praising Hilter’s ideology during a lesson about the Holocaust.

“Let’s just start with whether Hitler was right or not,” he told students. “He was the most correct person there ever was, and was correct in every word he said… he was just on the wrong side.”

Redler goes on to say that pluralism is the “real” genocide being perpetrated against the Jewish people, not Nazi Germany’s Final Solution.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/embracing-racism-rabbis-at-pre-army-yeshiva-laud-hitler-urge-enslaving-arabs/

Or see what these little Jewish children at an Israeli religious school have been taught to think. They are being taught to be racist, religious fanatics. It is not only Hamas.
https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20170727-jewish-students-arabs-are-slaves/

……….
And what about Israelu feelings about Palestinians now?

Plans for ethnically cleansing Gaza began before Trump won in the US presidential elections.
Daniella Weiss had sight seeing tours by boat from where Israelis could enjoy watching the rising smoke over Gaza from the Israeli bombs as they crushed, suffocated and burned innocent women and children, while the onlookers were imagining new homes.

Way back last year Trump’s nephew was coveting the real estate there saying Israel should move the Palestinians out and clean it up.

Smotrich said (January) “We want to encourage willful emigration, and we need to find countries willing to take them in,”

Then there was the plan of the general Eiland, “ Gaza must be completely destroyed: terrible chaos, severe humanitarian crisis, cries to heaven..." expressed at the end of October 2023.

Followed up recently by Netanyahu’s carrying it out:
Israel has issued many evacuation orders for the north throughout the yearlong war, the most recent of which was Sunday. The plan proposed to Netanyahu and the Israeli parliament by a group of retired generals would escalate the pressure, giving Palestinians a week to leave the northern third of the Gaza Strip, including Gaza City, before declaring it a closed military zone.

Those who remain would be considered combatants — meaning military regulations would allow troops to kill them — and denied food, water, medicine and fuel.
https://apnews.com/article/hamas-israel-generals-plan-eiland-gaza-219d7eb9a3050e281ccc032d5a56263c

Trump gave plenty of 2000lb bombs to help.

Now, in what way is there any surprise about the new Trump plan for Gaza to remove the Palestinians out to Jordan and Egypt and never allow them back?

How many Israelis endorse this plan of Trumps and believe Palestinian Gaza should not exist ? 65% according to a poll by the Jerusalem post:

Almost two-thirds of Israelis (65%) support US President Donald Trump’s plan to take over Gaza and believe it is the best solution to end the war in the coastal enclave, a Jerusalem Post^ poll revealed on Tuesday.*
https://www.jpost.com/israel-news/article-841693

Meanwhile extremist Israeli settlers not only continue to illegally settle the West Bank but do so at a faster rate than ever, and harass and harm Palestinians there aided and abetted by the Israeli government - and given a thumbs up by Trump who has given removed the sanctions Biden had imposed on the very worst of the Israeli illegal settlers on the West Bank.

CNN sums recent reactions including this from El-Sisi ( my bolding).:

El-Sisi criticized Israel’s move to evacuatemore than a million residents from northern Gaza in October 2023, it as part of a larger plan to rid the entire area of Palestinians.
https://www.cnn.com/2025/01/25/politics/trump-gaza-strip-jordan-egypt/index.html

…………

Then there are the thousands spin thousands of dead Palestinians and more under the rubble.

Hamas is a murderous, fanatic group. What they did on Oct 7 was an atrocity and the kidnapping of peaceful people as hostages, including non military men, old men, women and children was and is heinous and nothing justifies it.

Without knowing what the answer is I do not believe though, as some on this thread seem to, that the problem all lies with Palestinians’ intention to eradicate all Jews, while Jewish Israelis are all peaceful, democratic rational and fair victims of Palestinians who are just defending themselves with no agenda of their own to inhabit the river to the sea and either suppress or get rid of Palestinians.

Thankyou for this. Absolutely awful words from Rabbi Redler. A lot of hatred on both sides, I agree.

As I said, at the moment I feel it seems impossible.

But look at what has been achieved in Rwanda. Humans are capable of overcoming hatred in the right situation.

But I do think a new idea is needed.

@ScrollingLeaves That is really horrifying, I must say. Religious extremism intersecting with politics is a recipe for dystopia.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2025/feb/14/trump-gaza-plan-galvanizing-jihadist-far-right

👏👏

It's not hate speech to say that a population where 30% support Hamas - a proscribed terrorist organisation - and 75% support the October 7th atrocities - is radicalized. It doesn't mean that every individual is radicalized, obviously, (only 30% support Hamas) but as a population they are.

Nor is it hate speech to point out that a young person coming to adulthood in a place where such beliefs are widespread is more likely to become radicalised themselves than if they came to adulthood elsewhere.

It's inconvenient to your narrative, I know. But it's not in any way untrue or hate speech. In fact, without recognising that reality, no constructive ways forward can be found.