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Conflict in the Middle East

Christmas in Bethlehem

250 replies

Auvergne63 · 23/12/2024 09:09

Another muted celebration in Bethlehem, Christ's birthplace for over 2 billions Christians.
https://international.la-croix.com/religion/in-bethlehem-a-christmas-marked-by-exhaustion-and-anxiety
The economic consequences of the "war" on this holy place are also staggering.
https://apnews.com/article/christmas-israel-palestinians-bethlehem-jesus-gaza-war-b508f651811c710e6d2f1994a3dcf131

In Bethlehem, a Christmas marked by exhaustion and anxiety

As Christmas approaches, the churches of Jerusalem have called on their faithful to show signs of Christian hope. But in Bethlehem, economically suffocating and clouded by uncertainty, anxiety about the future weighs heavily on people's hearts.

https://international.la-croix.com/religion/in-bethlehem-a-christmas-marked-by-exhaustion-and-anxiety

OP posts:
Thread gallery
13
OpheliaWasntMad · 24/12/2024 16:29

SummerFeverVenice · 24/12/2024 14:46

It’s just impossible what you say is true.

The #1 religion in the world of 2.4 billion people is the “most endangered and persecuted” world wide?

So how long do we have before all Christianity is extinct? With only 2.4 billion believers, sheeesh…must be nail bitingly anxiety inducing…

There are only 0.015 billion of we Jewish people in the world…so what does that make us if Christians are the most endangered and persecuted worldwide??

Got an answer Ophelia?

🤪

“So how long do we have before all Christianity is extinct? With only 2.4 billion believers, sheeesh…must be nail bitingly anxiety inducing…” That’s really unpleasant sarcasm @SummerFeverVenice

It’s clear that you’re not someone who cares too much about oppression of Christians but nevertheless you do seem quite ignorant about the subject so I suggest you do some reading

The text below is from a 2019 news report. I can provide more up to date stats-Matters have not improved.

amp.theguardian.com/world/2019/may/02/persecution-driving-christians-out-of-middle-east-report

Persecution of Christians ‘coming close to genocide’ in Middle East – report
Millions uprooted from homes, says UK-commissioned report, with many jailed and killed
Patrick Wintour in Addis Ababa
Thu 2 May 2019 22.00 BS
Pervasive persecution of Christians, sometimes amounting to genocide, is ongoing in parts of the Middle East, and has prompted an exodus in the past two decades, according to a report commissioned by the British foreign secretary, Jeremy Hunt.
Millions of Christians in the region have been uprooted from their homes, and many have been killed, kidnapped, imprisoned and discriminated against, the report finds. It also highlights discrimination across south-east Asia, sub-Saharan Africa and in east Asia – often driven by state authoritarianism.
“The inconvenient truth,” the report finds, is “that the overwhelming majority (80%) of persecuted religious believers are Christians”.
Some of the report’s findings will make difficult reading for leaders across the Middle East who are accused of either tolerating or instigating persecution. The Justice and Development (AK) party of the Turkish president, Recep Tayyip Erdoğan, for instance, is highlighted for denigrating Christians.
As the Sri Lanka attacks show, Christians worldwide face serious persecution | Giles Fraser
Hunt described the interim report – published on Thursday, based on a reviewled by the bishop of Truro, the Rt Rev Philip Mounstephen – as “truly sobering”, especially since it came as “the world was seeing religious hatred laid bare in the appalling attacks at Easter on churches across Sri Lanka, and the devastating attack on two mosques in Christchurch”.Hunt, an Anglican, has made the issue of Christian persecution one of the major themes of his foreign secretaryship. “I think we have shied away from talking about Christian persecution because we are a Christian country and we have a colonial past, so sometimes there’s a nervousness there,” he said. “But we have to recognise – and that’s what the bishop’s report points out very starkly – that Christians are the most persecuted religious group.”
He added: “What we have forgotten in this atmosphere of political correctness is actually the Christians that are being persecuted are some of the poorest people on the planet. In the Middle East the population of Christians used to be about 20%; now it’s 5%.”
“We’ve all been asleep on the watch when it comes to the persecution of Christians. I think not just the bishop of Truro’s report but obviously what happened in Sri Lanka on Easter Sunday has woken everyone up with an enormous shock.”
The interim report is designed to set out the scale of the persecution and a final report in the summer will set out how the British Foreign Office can do more to raise awareness of the issue.
The report shows that a century ago Christians comprised 20% of the population in the Middle East and north Africa, but since then the proportion has fallen to less than 4%, or roughly 15 million people.
In the Middle East and north Africa, the report says, “forms of persecution ranging from routine discrimination in education, employment and social life up to genocidal attacks against Christian communities have led to a significant exodus of Christian believers from this region since the turn of the century.
“In countries such as Algeria, Egypt, Iran, Iraq, Syria and Saudi Arabia the situation of Christians and other minorities has reached an alarming stage. In Saudi Arabia there are strict limitations on all forms of expression of Christianityincluding public acts of worship. There have been regular crackdowns on private Christian services. The Arab-Israeli conflict has caused the majority of Palestinian Christians to leave their homeland. The population of Palestinian Christians has dropped from 15% to 2%
The report identifies three drivers of persecution: political failure creating a fertile ground for religious extremism; a turn to religious conservatism in countries such as Algeria and Turkey; and institutional weaknesses around justice, the rule of law and policing, leaving the system open to exploitation by extremists.
The report says: “The rise of hate speech against Christians in state media and by religious leaders, especially in countries like Iran and Saudi Arabia, has compromised the safety of Christians and created social intolerance.”
In findings that may pose difficulties for the UK as it seeks to build relations across the Middle East, the report states: “In some cases the state, extremist groups, families and communities participate collectively in persecution and discriminatory behaviour “…..
The report says freedom of religious belief can also act as a means of helping those suffering gender discrimination, since there is clear evidence that female Christians suffer disproportionately

Jeremy Hunt raises plight of Christians in Easter message

Foreign secretary also defends austerity as Tory leadership race heats up

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/apr/20/jeremy-hunt-raises-plight-of-christians-in-easter-message

OpheliaWasntMad · 24/12/2024 16:37

SummerFeverVenice · 24/12/2024 14:40

I don’t need to. Read any HRW, UN, Amnesty Intl report or the ICJ ruling on apartheid and illegal settlement and you can see plain as day that the source of Palestinians of ALL religions discrimination, socio-economic disadvantage, ethnic cleansing and diaspora is due to Israel’s government laws, policies and actions since 1948.

Your unevidenced opinion article from jpost reports demographic facts but then deflects away from the real cause to blame Muslims.

Prejudice exists alright, but Muslim Palestinians don’t have the systemic or institutional power to do that which the jpost opinion accused them of doing.

Go to forensic architecture to see the deaths by religious group and the % destruction of mosques and churches.

Edited

“Prejudice exists alright, but Muslim Palestinians don’t have the systemic or institutional power to do that which the jpost opinion accused them of doing.“
The jpost article may well be biased but the fact remains that Christians have been oppressed by extreme Islamists in the region . consider the fate of the owner of the last Christian bookshop in Gaza …
https://foreignpolicy.com/2021/10/03/vanishing-arab-christians-gaza-hamas-di-giovanni-book/#cookie_message_anchor

Today, the purging of the Christian community is part of a broader vanishing of Christians from the Middle East. In Gaza, it is partly the result of the economy and the siege, but it is undeniably made worse by life under Hamas. In 2007, one year after Hamas was elected, the last Christian bookstore in central Gaza, known as The Teacher’s Bookshop, was firebombed twice. It was one of a spate of similar bombings that occurred in Gaza around that time. The bookshop, a haven of sorts with an internet café and educational services, had been established by the Gaza Baptist Church 10 years earlier. Its Christian owner, Rami Ayyad, a deeply religious and kindly man, was kidnapped, tortured, and murdered by extremists. He had received death threats from jihadis for years but refused to close his shop. Hamas condemned the murder and vowed to protect the remaining Christians, but the assailants were never found.

In Hamas-Run Gaza, the Last Arab Christians Are Hanging On

An ancient community bears witness to its own purging—and recalls a more tolerant time.

https://foreignpolicy.com/2021/10/03/vanishing-arab-christians-gaza-hamas-di-giovanni-book#cookie_message_anchor

OpheliaWasntMad · 24/12/2024 16:39

I’m not expecting @SummerFeverVenice to read those reports above as I know you are not really interested in the oppression of Christians. That’s fine. . But if you do choose to comment it might help if you were better informed.

SharonEllis · 24/12/2024 17:17

SummerFeverVenice · 24/12/2024 14:46

It’s just impossible what you say is true.

The #1 religion in the world of 2.4 billion people is the “most endangered and persecuted” world wide?

So how long do we have before all Christianity is extinct? With only 2.4 billion believers, sheeesh…must be nail bitingly anxiety inducing…

There are only 0.015 billion of we Jewish people in the world…so what does that make us if Christians are the most endangered and persecuted worldwide??

Got an answer Ophelia?

🤪

This is extremely nasty to minimise the horrific persecution of Christians. And on Christmas eve too. I'm not a christian but this is really unpleasant.

ginasevern · 24/12/2024 18:01

queenofarles · 23/12/2024 14:04

Seeing how a Christmas market was just opened in Demarcus and both Christmas and Muslims were taking photos in front of a giant tree , looks like things are hopeful, and after all let’s not pretend that it’s not just Christians that fled that region many Muslims drowned trying to flee the civil war im Syria.

It was set fire to yesterday by Muslim fundamentalists.

queenofarles · 24/12/2024 19:01

ginasevern · 24/12/2024 18:01

It was set fire to yesterday by Muslim fundamentalists.

A tree was set on fire in Suqalbyiah ,, not the ones in Damascus , not that it makes it any less horrific ,
scumbags .

this is what the Parish put out :
Al-Suqaylabiyah Parish Priest, Father Maher Haddad: 8 people of non-Syrian nationality set fire to the Christmas tree two days after it was lit, and the Public Security was able to arrest and detain them, and the tree will be restored and lit again.

edited to add this ;
Videos of the aftermath showed a religious figure from the governing HTS rebel group assuring crowds who had gathered in Suqaylabiyah that the tree would be repaired before the morning.
The man then held up a cross in a show of solidarity, something Islamist conservatives would not normally do.

SpiritAdder · 24/12/2024 20:43

Hilarious that people think the most widespread and populous religion on the planet is the most persecuted and endangered religion. No amount of links showing small pockets of persecution in a few countries is going to prop up that bit of hyperbolic propaganda.

Anyway, in line with the OP- Palestinian Christians in Bethlehem do not agree that they are being persecuted by Muslims. Rev Munther stated in an interview:

“When he says there is no occupation, it makes me wonder: Who are the soldiers when I go through the checkpoint every day as I drive my kids to school? The soldiers sometimes pointing their guns at us? Am I imagining? To him, none of that exists. It’s all Judea and Samaria.”

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/in-bethlehem-a-christian-pastor-says-a-year-of-protest-for-palestinians-shows-few-gains/ar-AA1wnNYx

https://theconversation.com/palestinian-christians-call-on-western-churches-to-humanize-the-children-of-gaza-244377

“Church officials and Christian leaders in Israel blame a minority of Jewish extremists for the attacks. They say Israel’s far-right government has fostered a culture of impunity.”
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/israel-palestinians-christians-attacks-holy-land-jewish-extremists-rcna80441

In the wake of two deaths at Holy Family Catholic Church, Palestinian Christians are weighing the costs of speaking out against the Israeli government.”

https://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/the-dilemma-of-gazas-christians

OpheliaWasntMad · 24/12/2024 23:35

SpiritAdder · 24/12/2024 20:43

Hilarious that people think the most widespread and populous religion on the planet is the most persecuted and endangered religion. No amount of links showing small pockets of persecution in a few countries is going to prop up that bit of hyperbolic propaganda.

Anyway, in line with the OP- Palestinian Christians in Bethlehem do not agree that they are being persecuted by Muslims. Rev Munther stated in an interview:

“When he says there is no occupation, it makes me wonder: Who are the soldiers when I go through the checkpoint every day as I drive my kids to school? The soldiers sometimes pointing their guns at us? Am I imagining? To him, none of that exists. It’s all Judea and Samaria.”

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/in-bethlehem-a-christian-pastor-says-a-year-of-protest-for-palestinians-shows-few-gains/ar-AA1wnNYx

https://theconversation.com/palestinian-christians-call-on-western-churches-to-humanize-the-children-of-gaza-244377

“Church officials and Christian leaders in Israel blame a minority of Jewish extremists for the attacks. They say Israel’s far-right government has fostered a culture of impunity.”
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/israel-palestinians-christians-attacks-holy-land-jewish-extremists-rcna80441

In the wake of two deaths at Holy Family Catholic Church, Palestinian Christians are weighing the costs of speaking out against the Israeli government.”

https://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/the-dilemma-of-gazas-christians

“Hilarious that people think the most widespread and populous religion on the planet is the most persecuted and endangered religion.”
It’s not hilarious. You just don’t want to accept the facts and data .
And do me a favour- don’t then try to pivot and say - it’s hilarious that people think Christians the most populous religion are being persecuted by Muslims … but by the way Israelis treat Christians really badly - isn’t that terrible?”

OpheliaWasntMad · 24/12/2024 23:37

@SpiritAdder And as to your “small pockets of persecution in a few countries “
You don’t actually know or care about Christian persecution do you?

OpheliaWasntMad · 24/12/2024 23:41

I don’t know any Muslims or Jews or atheists in real life who would say the kinds of things about Christians that people say on mumsnet .

People who say persecution of a minority is “hilarious “ because they might be a minority in a particular country but are not in a minority in a world scale .. Im glad I haven’t met any of those people.

OpheliaWasntMad · 24/12/2024 23:43

queenofarles · 24/12/2024 19:01

A tree was set on fire in Suqalbyiah ,, not the ones in Damascus , not that it makes it any less horrific ,
scumbags .

this is what the Parish put out :
Al-Suqaylabiyah Parish Priest, Father Maher Haddad: 8 people of non-Syrian nationality set fire to the Christmas tree two days after it was lit, and the Public Security was able to arrest and detain them, and the tree will be restored and lit again.

edited to add this ;
Videos of the aftermath showed a religious figure from the governing HTS rebel group assuring crowds who had gathered in Suqaylabiyah that the tree would be repaired before the morning.
The man then held up a cross in a show of solidarity, something Islamist conservatives would not normally do.

Edited

I hope the HTS rebel group are true to their word and protect the minorities in their country.

OchaLove · 25/12/2024 02:05

Perhaps Christians are not persecuted widely as a whole but Catholics and Orthodox Christians are persecuted the most - I have no data, based on my observations. It would be interesting to look at these numbers by the denominations.

SharonEllis · 25/12/2024 07:20

OchaLove · 25/12/2024 02:05

Perhaps Christians are not persecuted widely as a whole but Catholics and Orthodox Christians are persecuted the most - I have no data, based on my observations. It would be interesting to look at these numbers by the denominations.

Why post if you have no data & why ignore the data that jas been presented to you? Ophelia has posted several links. Here is another. This one has a map showing the top 50 countries where Christians are persecuted and the majority religion in those countries. They do not distinguish between catholics and protestants in the headline data but Individual country dossiers have some information. Thinking of all those Christians waking up this morning in fear this morning across the world.

SummerFeverVenice · 25/12/2024 09:48

SharonEllis · 24/12/2024 15:30

The overal number isnt particularly relevant. Nobody said all Christians were the most persecuted. But there is increasing evidence - some of it posted here and on similar threads before that Christians in some parts of the world are facing near genocidal levels of persecution. And because of the formulation that you yoursrlf have tapped into, around hierarchies of oppression they tend to be ignored.

“Nobody said all Christians were the most persecuted”
Yes they did Sharon unless you are thinking there are Christians off-planet? A colony on Mars perhaps?

Ophelia wrote:
“The data shows however that Christianity world wide is the most endangered and persecuted religion.”
Christianity world wide explicitly refers to all Christians in the world.

Christians in some parts of the world are facing near genocidal levels of persecution”

While I recognise that Christians are persecuted in some countries for their religion, I cannot recall any claim of Christian genocide being referred by the UN to the ICJ?

SummerFeverVenice · 25/12/2024 10:14

SharonEllis · 24/12/2024 17:17

This is extremely nasty to minimise the horrific persecution of Christians. And on Christmas eve too. I'm not a christian but this is really unpleasant.

Oh, yes I’m a nasty Jew for pointing out that
“The data shows however that Christianity world wide is the most endangered and persecuted religion.”
cannot be a true statement because Christianity is the #1 religion in the world and in a majority of places on the planet, it is Christians persecuting other religions.

I was not minimising religious persecution, I was calling bullshit on right wing Christian propaganda.

You know what is extremely unpleasant? Posting this while knowing it was Christians that genocided half of us world wide a mere 80 years ago. While knowing that we are still the #1 worldwide victim of religious hate crime per capita- the most accurate measure of degree of religious persecution.

Christians aren’t the most persecuted. Full stop.

And yes, in Israel my fellow co-religionists are busy persecuting other religions as that tends to be what we horrible humans do. The majority religion in a country often, but not always, persecutes the minority religions.

Happy Chanukah

OpheliaWasntMad · 25/12/2024 10:15

SummerFeverVenice · 25/12/2024 09:48

“Nobody said all Christians were the most persecuted”
Yes they did Sharon unless you are thinking there are Christians off-planet? A colony on Mars perhaps?

Ophelia wrote:
“The data shows however that Christianity world wide is the most endangered and persecuted religion.”
Christianity world wide explicitly refers to all Christians in the world.

Christians in some parts of the world are facing near genocidal levels of persecution”

While I recognise that Christians are persecuted in some countries for their religion, I cannot recall any claim of Christian genocide being referred by the UN to the ICJ?

Happy Christmas @SummerFeverVenice

I see you didn’t read the links.

Not to worry. I didn’t say “all Christians “ are persecuted. Obviously in the west Christians are often in a majority and privileged position.
You may not realise but Christianity is not a white western religion. It exists also in places of conflict and the numbers shows that ( in terms of numbers) Christians are the most persecuted religion.

Im not mentioning this because I think there should be a hierarchy of oppression. That’s ridiculous. It’s simply to correct the false ideas about Christianity as a privileged white religion.

Oppression of all religions is wrong. It doesn’t really matter which religion is most oppressed. I just wanted to point out something that doesn’t get reported much. Sadly you chose to sneer and mock the notion of oppression of Christianity.

Happy Christmas everyone.

SummerFeverVenice · 25/12/2024 10:24

OpheliaWasntMad · 25/12/2024 10:15

Happy Christmas @SummerFeverVenice

I see you didn’t read the links.

Not to worry. I didn’t say “all Christians “ are persecuted. Obviously in the west Christians are often in a majority and privileged position.
You may not realise but Christianity is not a white western religion. It exists also in places of conflict and the numbers shows that ( in terms of numbers) Christians are the most persecuted religion.

Im not mentioning this because I think there should be a hierarchy of oppression. That’s ridiculous. It’s simply to correct the false ideas about Christianity as a privileged white religion.

Oppression of all religions is wrong. It doesn’t really matter which religion is most oppressed. I just wanted to point out something that doesn’t get reported much. Sadly you chose to sneer and mock the notion of oppression of Christianity.

Happy Christmas everyone.

I read the links, as expected no proof that supported your extraordinary and ludicrous claim
“The data shows however that Christianity world wide is the most endangered and persecuted religion.”

(Christianity world wide explicitly refers to all Christians in the world.)

Now you are doubling down claiming you didn’t say what you said but were only trying highlight that some Christians in some parts of the world do experience religious persecution and it “doesn’t really matter which religion is the most oppressed”

You introduced it to the thread!!

Not very Christian of you is it? Perhaps you should apologise for saying what you didn’t mean? And presenting as fact a fiction that erases the real fact- even today it is Jewish people that are the most persecuted for their religion world wide. Not Christians.

I don’t even understand why you’d WANT to claim this “hierarchy of oppression” top spot for yourself. Or why you’d claim or when it “doesn’t really matter” to you.

OP posts:
OpheliaWasntMad · 25/12/2024 12:07

SummerFeverVenice · 25/12/2024 10:24

I read the links, as expected no proof that supported your extraordinary and ludicrous claim
“The data shows however that Christianity world wide is the most endangered and persecuted religion.”

(Christianity world wide explicitly refers to all Christians in the world.)

Now you are doubling down claiming you didn’t say what you said but were only trying highlight that some Christians in some parts of the world do experience religious persecution and it “doesn’t really matter which religion is the most oppressed”

You introduced it to the thread!!

Not very Christian of you is it? Perhaps you should apologise for saying what you didn’t mean? And presenting as fact a fiction that erases the real fact- even today it is Jewish people that are the most persecuted for their religion world wide. Not Christians.

I don’t even understand why you’d WANT to claim this “hierarchy of oppression” top spot for yourself. Or why you’d claim or when it “doesn’t really matter” to you.

oh dear . You’ve completely misunderstood me . I’m very much against persecution and oppression of Jewish people and have spoken up for Jewish people many times and will continue to do so. I’d like to think you would do the same for religions other than your own.
Any and all oppression of religion ( or indeed persecution of atheism) is wrong.

The links I provided provide evidence for the claims I’ve made. The facts are there for people to read. Obviously you can argue that as the number of Christians is so large that will skew the data.

It doesn’t change the fact that Christianity is under threat in many many parts of the globe .

OpheliaWasntMad · 25/12/2024 12:08

Thank you

OpheliaWasntMad · 25/12/2024 12:37

“in a majority of places on the planet, it is Christians persecuting other religions.”
Have you got any evidence to support this claim @SummerFeverVenice ?

I do agree with you that Christians have been the perpetrators of vile anti semitism in the past ( a minority of extremist Christians may still have those views)
It is shameful that Christians have behaved in that way and it is totally against everything Christianity should stand for .

queenofarles · 25/12/2024 12:41

You will find even in most Free countries some Christians feel threatened , take the US for example US , lots of hate crimes were committed towards churches and clinics that are pro life, lots of Christian businesses were taken to court by LGBTQ groups.

In countries like Ukraine and Russia , orthodox Christians feel threatened too and can’t practice their chosen faith.
oppression comes in many ways, violent and non violent .

OpheliaWasntMad · 25/12/2024 13:06

Remembering all those trying to celebrate Christmas in Gaza and Palestine May there be peace soon for all people of good will who live in the Holy Land - whatever their religion.
news.sky.com/story/amp/bethlehems-christian-community-struggles-to-celebrate-amid-ongoing-gaza-war-and-west-bank-tensions-13279696

HoppingPavlova · 25/12/2024 13:21

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