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Conflict in the Middle East

Ireland believe genocide being perpetrated

356 replies

username7891 · 09/11/2024 22:24

I'm surprised this hasn't already been posted but Ireland passed a non binding motion a few days ago that “genocide is being perpetrated before our eyes by Israel in Gaza”.
https://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/micheal-martin-ireland-south-africa-gaza-people-b1192666.html

OP posts:
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9
LoremIpsumCici · 11/11/2024 21:28

I think only a fraction of actual deaths make it to the death toll report. It’s not just me that thinks this, there was a recent report in the Lancet written by professionals who have come to a similar conclusion regarding the number of people killed in Gaza. (https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(24)01169-3/fulltext)

In recent conflicts, such indirect deaths range from three to 15 times the number of direct deaths.

44k times 3 = 132k minimumindirect deaths
44+132= 176k minimum total deaths

44k times 15 = 660k maximum indirect deaths
44+660= 1m maximum total deaths

Using the 2022 Gaza Strip population estimate of 2 ,375 ,259, this would translate to 7%-42% of the total population in the Gaza Strip.

I would not be surprised if a quarter of a million have lost their lives by now. The authors used the conservative multiplier of 4 which if applied today would indicate 220k deaths.

So 225k, a quarter million is a conservative estimate. This could explain why the famine caused by lack of aid hasn’t been progressing as fast as some NGOs initially estimated/warned.

Purspectiveplease · 12/11/2024 16:21

Liv999 · 11/11/2024 15:09

Indeed, so many questions left unanswered..🤔

The Irish fight for independence can be very briefly summarised as: there was guerilla war, combined with / causing collapse of state function for about 2 years. During that time, the Irish forces successfully killed or forced out the British. Many people who considered themselves to be British either went back to Britain, or retreated to the north into what is now Northern Ireland. By 1921, Ireland was an independent nation. Some Catholics from Northern Ireland moved to the Republic but many stayed in their homes. The British people who fled for the most part could not return to their old homes or move anywhere else in the Republic of Ireland and live safely as citizens. They mostly lived as British citizens somewhere in the UK. The border eventually stabilised, fighting ended, eventually a peace agreement was signed and today there are 2 states in the land.

Today, there is not a significant lobby in Ireland protesting to give the British people who fled to Northern Ireland or the UK their ancestor’s land back, offer them citizenship or indeed destroy the state of Ireland in order to return it to the British people whose ancestors once lived there. In contrast, there is a very loud protest movement calling on Israelis to give the Arabs who fled to Jordan their ancestor’s land back, offer them citizenship or completely destroy the state of Israel to make a Palestinian state “from the river to the sea”. Ireland’s struggle for independence echoes Israel’s at every step, but in Ireland no one advocates returning property to the old occupiers but they expect Israelis to. That is a double standard.

A very brief summary of the history of Israel would be: Jewish people lived in Israel, the Romans came, caused a lot of death and suffering (equivalent: Irish people lived in Ireland, the British came, caused a lot of death and suffering) and took many of the locals to Europe as slaves. The remaining locals stayed in their largely irrelevant corner of the empire when the Roman Empire morphed into the Byzantine Empire. Then the locals (normal working people) stayed when the Byzantines (the political elite) were forced out by the first Caliphate during the Arab Conquests. (This doesn’t change that Israel is still rightfully the home of the Jews, any more than France “stealing” Ireland from the British would have made Ireland less Irish).

There were several different Caliphates, none of which had its capital in Jerusalem or anywhere which is now Israel or Palestine, so it continued to be a fairly unimportant corner of the world as wars continued and it was “owned” by several caliphates. There was massive population transfer during the following centuries and the Arab population and Arabised local population soon outnumbered the Jewish local population. (Maybe if the British had colonised Ireland more, forcing them to become Protestant or making them the minority in Ireland, then the Irish would recognise their “right” to Ireland today?!) This also caused additional deaths and suffering for the locals. At this stage, the majority of the Jews are still in exile, although mostly no longer slaves.

In the 1500s, the Ottoman Empire emerged victorious. The Jews from other parts of the Ottoman Empire moved / were moved to Israel, as were a lot of other people. Mostly these other people were not considered to be immigrants at the time because they were other citizens of Transjordan who were moving internally within their country. But using today's borders, they would mostly be Jordanians and some Syrians. There was also immigration from Egypt of both Arabs and Bedouins who were understood to be immigrants at the time. After the First World War, Britain “acquired” Transjordan from Turkey.

Shortly before the British left, the majority of Transjordan became independent. The very small Jewish population of the independent Transjordan was moved to the remaining British part. When the British finally left, the borders for the last remaining part of British Transjordan had been agreed and to avoid forcing more people to move, the land was split largely by religion into Israel and Palestine. This would have created 2 very weirdly shaped countries which would have struggled to function independently without very close sharing of resources. Neither could have defended its borders against the other.

The day the British forces left, the fledgling Palestinian state was assisted by the Syrian, Lebanese, Iraqi, Tranjordanian, Egyptian and Sudanese armies to attempt to wipe Israel off of the map and kill all the Jews. Luckily they failed. The reality was that the 2 states could never have functioned, so Israel became a more sensible, defendable shape. To do that, many people were expelled from their homes and fled to Jordan (mostly) and Egypt. Some were also internally displaced within Palestine, hence why there have been refugee camps for Palestinians in Gaza for 3 generations. They’re Palestinains from places which would have been part of Palestine had the British map ever actually become a reality (which it didn't becase the Palestinians rejected it and chose to start a war instead). The Palestinains from Gaza have kept them in refugee camps all this time, rather than letting them live in normal homes. This would be the equivalent of having a refugee camp in Northern Ireland for British people whose families once occupied Dublin (i.e. Palestinan refugees in Gaza), and further refugee camps in England for them (i.e. Palestinian refugees in Jordan). It sounds outrageous when we think of it in European terms, and it is equally outrageous in the Middle East. That doesn't mean the solution is to destroy the world's only Jewish state though.

Auvergne63 · 12/11/2024 16:30

Purspectiveplease · 12/11/2024 16:21

The Irish fight for independence can be very briefly summarised as: there was guerilla war, combined with / causing collapse of state function for about 2 years. During that time, the Irish forces successfully killed or forced out the British. Many people who considered themselves to be British either went back to Britain, or retreated to the north into what is now Northern Ireland. By 1921, Ireland was an independent nation. Some Catholics from Northern Ireland moved to the Republic but many stayed in their homes. The British people who fled for the most part could not return to their old homes or move anywhere else in the Republic of Ireland and live safely as citizens. They mostly lived as British citizens somewhere in the UK. The border eventually stabilised, fighting ended, eventually a peace agreement was signed and today there are 2 states in the land.

Today, there is not a significant lobby in Ireland protesting to give the British people who fled to Northern Ireland or the UK their ancestor’s land back, offer them citizenship or indeed destroy the state of Ireland in order to return it to the British people whose ancestors once lived there. In contrast, there is a very loud protest movement calling on Israelis to give the Arabs who fled to Jordan their ancestor’s land back, offer them citizenship or completely destroy the state of Israel to make a Palestinian state “from the river to the sea”. Ireland’s struggle for independence echoes Israel’s at every step, but in Ireland no one advocates returning property to the old occupiers but they expect Israelis to. That is a double standard.

A very brief summary of the history of Israel would be: Jewish people lived in Israel, the Romans came, caused a lot of death and suffering (equivalent: Irish people lived in Ireland, the British came, caused a lot of death and suffering) and took many of the locals to Europe as slaves. The remaining locals stayed in their largely irrelevant corner of the empire when the Roman Empire morphed into the Byzantine Empire. Then the locals (normal working people) stayed when the Byzantines (the political elite) were forced out by the first Caliphate during the Arab Conquests. (This doesn’t change that Israel is still rightfully the home of the Jews, any more than France “stealing” Ireland from the British would have made Ireland less Irish).

There were several different Caliphates, none of which had its capital in Jerusalem or anywhere which is now Israel or Palestine, so it continued to be a fairly unimportant corner of the world as wars continued and it was “owned” by several caliphates. There was massive population transfer during the following centuries and the Arab population and Arabised local population soon outnumbered the Jewish local population. (Maybe if the British had colonised Ireland more, forcing them to become Protestant or making them the minority in Ireland, then the Irish would recognise their “right” to Ireland today?!) This also caused additional deaths and suffering for the locals. At this stage, the majority of the Jews are still in exile, although mostly no longer slaves.

In the 1500s, the Ottoman Empire emerged victorious. The Jews from other parts of the Ottoman Empire moved / were moved to Israel, as were a lot of other people. Mostly these other people were not considered to be immigrants at the time because they were other citizens of Transjordan who were moving internally within their country. But using today's borders, they would mostly be Jordanians and some Syrians. There was also immigration from Egypt of both Arabs and Bedouins who were understood to be immigrants at the time. After the First World War, Britain “acquired” Transjordan from Turkey.

Shortly before the British left, the majority of Transjordan became independent. The very small Jewish population of the independent Transjordan was moved to the remaining British part. When the British finally left, the borders for the last remaining part of British Transjordan had been agreed and to avoid forcing more people to move, the land was split largely by religion into Israel and Palestine. This would have created 2 very weirdly shaped countries which would have struggled to function independently without very close sharing of resources. Neither could have defended its borders against the other.

The day the British forces left, the fledgling Palestinian state was assisted by the Syrian, Lebanese, Iraqi, Tranjordanian, Egyptian and Sudanese armies to attempt to wipe Israel off of the map and kill all the Jews. Luckily they failed. The reality was that the 2 states could never have functioned, so Israel became a more sensible, defendable shape. To do that, many people were expelled from their homes and fled to Jordan (mostly) and Egypt. Some were also internally displaced within Palestine, hence why there have been refugee camps for Palestinians in Gaza for 3 generations. They’re Palestinains from places which would have been part of Palestine had the British map ever actually become a reality (which it didn't becase the Palestinians rejected it and chose to start a war instead). The Palestinains from Gaza have kept them in refugee camps all this time, rather than letting them live in normal homes. This would be the equivalent of having a refugee camp in Northern Ireland for British people whose families once occupied Dublin (i.e. Palestinan refugees in Gaza), and further refugee camps in England for them (i.e. Palestinian refugees in Jordan). It sounds outrageous when we think of it in European terms, and it is equally outrageous in the Middle East. That doesn't mean the solution is to destroy the world's only Jewish state though.

They say that history is written by the victors. Your post is a prime example of this. There are always two sides of a conflict. Being able to look at both sides requires critical thinking and a level of emotional detachment so you can come closer to the truth.

Marblesbackagain · 12/11/2024 16:31

@Purspectiveplease I will give you the benefit of ignorance. Your take on Irish history is a typical UK fallacy.

I strongly recommend you read an Irish History book for facts. That version you wrote should start with once upon a time...

Marblesbackagain · 12/11/2024 16:37

The fact you don't understand that Ireland the nation owned by the Irish people, had their land taken by the invading British in the first place is an example of absolute blinker invading rhetoric.

So in your version the Irish should handover their ancestors land to the invaders ? @Purspectiveplease .

Dulra · 12/11/2024 16:40

Purspectiveplease · 12/11/2024 16:21

The Irish fight for independence can be very briefly summarised as: there was guerilla war, combined with / causing collapse of state function for about 2 years. During that time, the Irish forces successfully killed or forced out the British. Many people who considered themselves to be British either went back to Britain, or retreated to the north into what is now Northern Ireland. By 1921, Ireland was an independent nation. Some Catholics from Northern Ireland moved to the Republic but many stayed in their homes. The British people who fled for the most part could not return to their old homes or move anywhere else in the Republic of Ireland and live safely as citizens. They mostly lived as British citizens somewhere in the UK. The border eventually stabilised, fighting ended, eventually a peace agreement was signed and today there are 2 states in the land.

Today, there is not a significant lobby in Ireland protesting to give the British people who fled to Northern Ireland or the UK their ancestor’s land back, offer them citizenship or indeed destroy the state of Ireland in order to return it to the British people whose ancestors once lived there. In contrast, there is a very loud protest movement calling on Israelis to give the Arabs who fled to Jordan their ancestor’s land back, offer them citizenship or completely destroy the state of Israel to make a Palestinian state “from the river to the sea”. Ireland’s struggle for independence echoes Israel’s at every step, but in Ireland no one advocates returning property to the old occupiers but they expect Israelis to. That is a double standard.

A very brief summary of the history of Israel would be: Jewish people lived in Israel, the Romans came, caused a lot of death and suffering (equivalent: Irish people lived in Ireland, the British came, caused a lot of death and suffering) and took many of the locals to Europe as slaves. The remaining locals stayed in their largely irrelevant corner of the empire when the Roman Empire morphed into the Byzantine Empire. Then the locals (normal working people) stayed when the Byzantines (the political elite) were forced out by the first Caliphate during the Arab Conquests. (This doesn’t change that Israel is still rightfully the home of the Jews, any more than France “stealing” Ireland from the British would have made Ireland less Irish).

There were several different Caliphates, none of which had its capital in Jerusalem or anywhere which is now Israel or Palestine, so it continued to be a fairly unimportant corner of the world as wars continued and it was “owned” by several caliphates. There was massive population transfer during the following centuries and the Arab population and Arabised local population soon outnumbered the Jewish local population. (Maybe if the British had colonised Ireland more, forcing them to become Protestant or making them the minority in Ireland, then the Irish would recognise their “right” to Ireland today?!) This also caused additional deaths and suffering for the locals. At this stage, the majority of the Jews are still in exile, although mostly no longer slaves.

In the 1500s, the Ottoman Empire emerged victorious. The Jews from other parts of the Ottoman Empire moved / were moved to Israel, as were a lot of other people. Mostly these other people were not considered to be immigrants at the time because they were other citizens of Transjordan who were moving internally within their country. But using today's borders, they would mostly be Jordanians and some Syrians. There was also immigration from Egypt of both Arabs and Bedouins who were understood to be immigrants at the time. After the First World War, Britain “acquired” Transjordan from Turkey.

Shortly before the British left, the majority of Transjordan became independent. The very small Jewish population of the independent Transjordan was moved to the remaining British part. When the British finally left, the borders for the last remaining part of British Transjordan had been agreed and to avoid forcing more people to move, the land was split largely by religion into Israel and Palestine. This would have created 2 very weirdly shaped countries which would have struggled to function independently without very close sharing of resources. Neither could have defended its borders against the other.

The day the British forces left, the fledgling Palestinian state was assisted by the Syrian, Lebanese, Iraqi, Tranjordanian, Egyptian and Sudanese armies to attempt to wipe Israel off of the map and kill all the Jews. Luckily they failed. The reality was that the 2 states could never have functioned, so Israel became a more sensible, defendable shape. To do that, many people were expelled from their homes and fled to Jordan (mostly) and Egypt. Some were also internally displaced within Palestine, hence why there have been refugee camps for Palestinians in Gaza for 3 generations. They’re Palestinains from places which would have been part of Palestine had the British map ever actually become a reality (which it didn't becase the Palestinians rejected it and chose to start a war instead). The Palestinains from Gaza have kept them in refugee camps all this time, rather than letting them live in normal homes. This would be the equivalent of having a refugee camp in Northern Ireland for British people whose families once occupied Dublin (i.e. Palestinan refugees in Gaza), and further refugee camps in England for them (i.e. Palestinian refugees in Jordan). It sounds outrageous when we think of it in European terms, and it is equally outrageous in the Middle East. That doesn't mean the solution is to destroy the world's only Jewish state though.

Good grief I have no idea where you get your information from but it is the stuff of fantasy.

Purspectiveplease · 12/11/2024 16:42

Auvergne63 · 12/11/2024 16:30

They say that history is written by the victors. Your post is a prime example of this. There are always two sides of a conflict. Being able to look at both sides requires critical thinking and a level of emotional detachment so you can come closer to the truth.

I'm British (mixed English and Scottish). I was mostly raised in broadly Christian communities, although I have always identified as an athiest. Am I the "victor" in any of this? I don't think I have an particular emotional attachment.
I have lived all of the world, educated in 4 countries and worked in 7 more. I've learned to look critically at the implicit assumptions and attitudes we absorb through education and culture by being foreign all the time! I've come to see that a lot of Europe is really rather antisemitic and that antisemtism is baked into our history, culture and Christian religion. Once I saw that, I was able to look at both sides, think critically and realise that it's ok to disagree with the majority when they're wrong.
Israel / Palestine is an especially hot issue in Europe because so many people use it to define their identity. That means lots of people have very strong opinions about it despite not being well-informed; everyone feels that they need to have a stance on Israel / Palestine even though it is at least as complex as India and Pakistan's conflict, which very few unconnected people hold as central to their identity and most people would not feel ashamed to admit they don't know enough to have a detailed opinon.

Dulra · 12/11/2024 16:43

Marblesbackagain · 12/11/2024 16:31

@Purspectiveplease I will give you the benefit of ignorance. Your take on Irish history is a typical UK fallacy.

I strongly recommend you read an Irish History book for facts. That version you wrote should start with once upon a time...

It's not even a UK fallacy never heard this bizarre version from anyone before

Purspectiveplease · 12/11/2024 16:54

Marblesbackagain · 12/11/2024 16:37

The fact you don't understand that Ireland the nation owned by the Irish people, had their land taken by the invading British in the first place is an example of absolute blinker invading rhetoric.

So in your version the Irish should handover their ancestors land to the invaders ? @Purspectiveplease .

I literally said that Ireland was invaded by the British, just as Israel was invaded by the Romans. The Romans lost Israel, so Israel did not fight for independence against the empire they lost their independence to. But, would Irish independence have been unnecessary had the Dutch / Japanese / Somalis “won” Ireland from the British? I’m assuming not.

I wish you could colour text on here to make this easier to see. Consistently chose either the first or second word at each / to get two versions of the same story:
Israel / Ireland are attacked by Romans / British. They suffer, people die. (The Romans then “lost” Israel.) Israel / Ireland are settled, colonised and abused by the Arabs / British. Israel / Ireland want independence, fight for independence and win. To do this they expel Arab / British people from their homes. Fighting ensues. Eventually an independent state of Israel / Ireland is created. Somehow Israel is evil for doing this and are unjustifiably occupying the Arab’s lands, while Ireland is righteous and simply reclaimed their own land. Double standard much?

Purspectiveplease · 12/11/2024 16:57

Marblesbackagain · 12/11/2024 16:31

@Purspectiveplease I will give you the benefit of ignorance. Your take on Irish history is a typical UK fallacy.

I strongly recommend you read an Irish History book for facts. That version you wrote should start with once upon a time...

It's obiously a very brief summary of Irish history, and somewhat simplified because of that, but I don't think anything I said was wrong. Do you think anything I said didn't happen?

JaneJeffer · 12/11/2024 16:59

Absolutely bonkers

JaneJeffer · 12/11/2024 17:01

Anyway you don't need to know anything about history to know that what is happening in the present is completely wrong!

Purspectiveplease · 12/11/2024 17:04

JaneJeffer · 12/11/2024 17:01

Anyway you don't need to know anything about history to know that what is happening in the present is completely wrong!

You do need to understand what happened before to see how we got here and what might be a realistic, fair way forward.

Lalaloveya · 12/11/2024 17:10

Purspectiveplease · 12/11/2024 17:04

You do need to understand what happened before to see how we got here and what might be a realistic, fair way forward.

You should heed your own advice. Your summary above is absolutely crazy. You realise the British invaded Ireland? You left that bit out.

ticketstickets · 12/11/2024 17:16

Its still very hard to justify De Valeras condolances to the German Ambassador on Hitler's death. The absolute best excuse I could find was that the German ambassador was a very nice guy. Its true that he had good relationships with the Herzogs and Briscoes, indeed, some of his best friends were Jewish. But the friendship didn't go as far as allowing Robert Briscoe to bring his cousins from Europe before WW2. However, I guess all was forgiven in later years and it is true a forest was planted in his name in Israel. Doesn't negate the fact that De Valera commited a horrible unforgivable blunder when he signed that book.

I think the Irish support for Palestinians also has a lot to do with links between Sinn Fein and Palestinian terror groups. Also, perhaps, the lack of Jews in Ireland. Many people won't have met a Jewish person. Plenty of classic old fashioned antisemitism and sheer ignorance here too.

Robert Briscoe and Yitzhak Herzog had no issue with being committed to the Irish cause and the Zionist cause simultaneously. As an Irish Jew, i also see no contradiction. @Purspectiveplease is not entirely correct in her postings but there is some truth in there. (British people fled the Irish Free State? I have never heard of this happening. Plenty of Protestants in South Dublin, they didn't all leave!!!)

Dulra · 12/11/2024 17:30

ticketstickets · 12/11/2024 17:16

Its still very hard to justify De Valeras condolances to the German Ambassador on Hitler's death. The absolute best excuse I could find was that the German ambassador was a very nice guy. Its true that he had good relationships with the Herzogs and Briscoes, indeed, some of his best friends were Jewish. But the friendship didn't go as far as allowing Robert Briscoe to bring his cousins from Europe before WW2. However, I guess all was forgiven in later years and it is true a forest was planted in his name in Israel. Doesn't negate the fact that De Valera commited a horrible unforgivable blunder when he signed that book.

I think the Irish support for Palestinians also has a lot to do with links between Sinn Fein and Palestinian terror groups. Also, perhaps, the lack of Jews in Ireland. Many people won't have met a Jewish person. Plenty of classic old fashioned antisemitism and sheer ignorance here too.

Robert Briscoe and Yitzhak Herzog had no issue with being committed to the Irish cause and the Zionist cause simultaneously. As an Irish Jew, i also see no contradiction. @Purspectiveplease is not entirely correct in her postings but there is some truth in there. (British people fled the Irish Free State? I have never heard of this happening. Plenty of Protestants in South Dublin, they didn't all leave!!!)

Doesn't negate the fact that De Valera commited a horrible unforgivable blunder when he signed that book.
No it doesn't never heard it condoned or described any differently.

I think the Irish support for Palestinians also has a lot to do with links between Sinn Fein and Palestinian terror groups
It goes back way further to British rule, black and tans operating in both Ireland and British mandate Palestine. Same British commanders in both areas. A kinship developed.
Sinn Fein/ IRA have been linked to numerous terrorist groups globally.

Also, perhaps, the lack of Jews in Ireland. Many people won't have met a Jewish person.
Yes lack of Jews in Ireland but there was a lack of anyone other than white Irish in Ireland until the mid 1990s. I grew up in the Jewish community in South Dublin so ironically I assumed for a long time that there was Jewish people all over Ireland. The main group discriminated against them and now were the Traveller community who are still the most marginalised and discriminated.

Plenty of classic old fashioned antisemitism and sheer ignorance here too.
Agree but not sure if it is different or more widespread than other countries. Definitely anti Israel mainly because of their actions in Gaza/West Bank

Marblesbackagain · 12/11/2024 17:48

Purspectiveplease · 12/11/2024 16:57

It's obiously a very brief summary of Irish history, and somewhat simplified because of that, but I don't think anything I said was wrong. Do you think anything I said didn't happen?

It's a fairy story from start to end. Plenty of very well researched history Irish books . Please stop spouting this rubbish it s ignorant and exceptionally hurtful to my family and ancestors.

My job is not to educate you. Your responsibility is to not write fairy tales

Liv999 · 12/11/2024 17:48

Purspectiveplease · 12/11/2024 16:21

The Irish fight for independence can be very briefly summarised as: there was guerilla war, combined with / causing collapse of state function for about 2 years. During that time, the Irish forces successfully killed or forced out the British. Many people who considered themselves to be British either went back to Britain, or retreated to the north into what is now Northern Ireland. By 1921, Ireland was an independent nation. Some Catholics from Northern Ireland moved to the Republic but many stayed in their homes. The British people who fled for the most part could not return to their old homes or move anywhere else in the Republic of Ireland and live safely as citizens. They mostly lived as British citizens somewhere in the UK. The border eventually stabilised, fighting ended, eventually a peace agreement was signed and today there are 2 states in the land.

Today, there is not a significant lobby in Ireland protesting to give the British people who fled to Northern Ireland or the UK their ancestor’s land back, offer them citizenship or indeed destroy the state of Ireland in order to return it to the British people whose ancestors once lived there. In contrast, there is a very loud protest movement calling on Israelis to give the Arabs who fled to Jordan their ancestor’s land back, offer them citizenship or completely destroy the state of Israel to make a Palestinian state “from the river to the sea”. Ireland’s struggle for independence echoes Israel’s at every step, but in Ireland no one advocates returning property to the old occupiers but they expect Israelis to. That is a double standard.

A very brief summary of the history of Israel would be: Jewish people lived in Israel, the Romans came, caused a lot of death and suffering (equivalent: Irish people lived in Ireland, the British came, caused a lot of death and suffering) and took many of the locals to Europe as slaves. The remaining locals stayed in their largely irrelevant corner of the empire when the Roman Empire morphed into the Byzantine Empire. Then the locals (normal working people) stayed when the Byzantines (the political elite) were forced out by the first Caliphate during the Arab Conquests. (This doesn’t change that Israel is still rightfully the home of the Jews, any more than France “stealing” Ireland from the British would have made Ireland less Irish).

There were several different Caliphates, none of which had its capital in Jerusalem or anywhere which is now Israel or Palestine, so it continued to be a fairly unimportant corner of the world as wars continued and it was “owned” by several caliphates. There was massive population transfer during the following centuries and the Arab population and Arabised local population soon outnumbered the Jewish local population. (Maybe if the British had colonised Ireland more, forcing them to become Protestant or making them the minority in Ireland, then the Irish would recognise their “right” to Ireland today?!) This also caused additional deaths and suffering for the locals. At this stage, the majority of the Jews are still in exile, although mostly no longer slaves.

In the 1500s, the Ottoman Empire emerged victorious. The Jews from other parts of the Ottoman Empire moved / were moved to Israel, as were a lot of other people. Mostly these other people were not considered to be immigrants at the time because they were other citizens of Transjordan who were moving internally within their country. But using today's borders, they would mostly be Jordanians and some Syrians. There was also immigration from Egypt of both Arabs and Bedouins who were understood to be immigrants at the time. After the First World War, Britain “acquired” Transjordan from Turkey.

Shortly before the British left, the majority of Transjordan became independent. The very small Jewish population of the independent Transjordan was moved to the remaining British part. When the British finally left, the borders for the last remaining part of British Transjordan had been agreed and to avoid forcing more people to move, the land was split largely by religion into Israel and Palestine. This would have created 2 very weirdly shaped countries which would have struggled to function independently without very close sharing of resources. Neither could have defended its borders against the other.

The day the British forces left, the fledgling Palestinian state was assisted by the Syrian, Lebanese, Iraqi, Tranjordanian, Egyptian and Sudanese armies to attempt to wipe Israel off of the map and kill all the Jews. Luckily they failed. The reality was that the 2 states could never have functioned, so Israel became a more sensible, defendable shape. To do that, many people were expelled from their homes and fled to Jordan (mostly) and Egypt. Some were also internally displaced within Palestine, hence why there have been refugee camps for Palestinians in Gaza for 3 generations. They’re Palestinains from places which would have been part of Palestine had the British map ever actually become a reality (which it didn't becase the Palestinians rejected it and chose to start a war instead). The Palestinains from Gaza have kept them in refugee camps all this time, rather than letting them live in normal homes. This would be the equivalent of having a refugee camp in Northern Ireland for British people whose families once occupied Dublin (i.e. Palestinan refugees in Gaza), and further refugee camps in England for them (i.e. Palestinian refugees in Jordan). It sounds outrageous when we think of it in European terms, and it is equally outrageous in the Middle East. That doesn't mean the solution is to destroy the world's only Jewish state though.

You do realise Britain invaded Ireland? A lot of those British people were landlords who took over the land and made the Irish pay rent to live there, and threw them off their own land if they couldn't pay! Why on earth would you think the Irish would give the land back to the British when it wasn't theirs in the first place?

Purspectiveplease · 12/11/2024 17:54

Liv999 · 12/11/2024 17:48

You do realise Britain invaded Ireland? A lot of those British people were landlords who took over the land and made the Irish pay rent to live there, and threw them off their own land if they couldn't pay! Why on earth would you think the Irish would give the land back to the British when it wasn't theirs in the first place?

Of course I realise that Britain invaded Ireland. That’s literally my point. Do you realise that Arabs invaded Israel? If it’s ok for Ireland to expel the people who invaded and occupied it, then it’s ok for Israel to expel the people who invaded and occupied it too. It’s logically inconsistent to justify Irish independence while also denying Israeli sovereignty.

Purspectiveplease · 12/11/2024 18:00

Marblesbackagain · 12/11/2024 17:48

It's a fairy story from start to end. Plenty of very well researched history Irish books . Please stop spouting this rubbish it s ignorant and exceptionally hurtful to my family and ancestors.

My job is not to educate you. Your responsibility is to not write fairy tales

I'm sorry if you found it hurtful. That was never my intention. However a quick google suggests that everything I said happened, did happen. Just because you disagree with historical analysis doesn't make it wrong or malicious. If there’s anything in particular I said which you think didn’t happen, do let me know, and I’ll happily share a link with some evidence.

Marblesbackagain · 12/11/2024 18:19

Purspectiveplease · 12/11/2024 16:57

It's obiously a very brief summary of Irish history, and somewhat simplified because of that, but I don't think anything I said was wrong. Do you think anything I said didn't happen?

It isn't a simplified version it is completely inaccurate. You may have been educated in four countries but none appear to have escaped the UK version of crap.

Liv999 · 12/11/2024 18:20

But no one is denying Israeli sovereignty are they? The situation in the Middle East is a lot more complicated than the Ireland/Britain situation, Jews, Muslims and Christians have been claiming that land since the beginning of time

username7891 · 12/11/2024 18:22

Liv999 · 12/11/2024 18:20

But no one is denying Israeli sovereignty are they? The situation in the Middle East is a lot more complicated than the Ireland/Britain situation, Jews, Muslims and Christians have been claiming that land since the beginning of time

People aren't denying Israel's sovereignty, they're denying Palestine's.

OP posts:
Marblesbackagain · 12/11/2024 18:25

Purspectiveplease · 12/11/2024 18:00

I'm sorry if you found it hurtful. That was never my intention. However a quick google suggests that everything I said happened, did happen. Just because you disagree with historical analysis doesn't make it wrong or malicious. If there’s anything in particular I said which you think didn’t happen, do let me know, and I’ll happily share a link with some evidence.

As I have said before go read an Irish history book and learn about us. Stop trying to align completely different situations, cultures and experiences.

You can't do this. It isn't take a mathematical function and apply it to different numbers and show the same result.

Ireland has had the British invading since history is recorded. They never had a right to our land, ever. It was never disputed that it was Ireland. We had them starve us during the famine, by taking our crops for themselves.

We had them massacre innocent children and people in very recent history. Your clumsy posts are disgustingly ignorant.

Stop posting inaccurate so called history about our country. It's like a ten year old child and threw a question into very rudimentary AI.

Purspectiveplease · 12/11/2024 18:27

Marblesbackagain · 12/11/2024 18:19

It isn't a simplified version it is completely inaccurate. You may have been educated in four countries but none appear to have escaped the UK version of crap.

One of them was Ireland! 😂

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