Amsterdam

[EricInk]

I can't believe how unbalanced the media reporting is of the events last night

The maccabi fans were behaving atrociously and inciting conflict the entire day, pulling down flags, chanting 'fuck Palestine' and intimidating Dutch Arabs

Your original post said the victims were not “innocent victims “ but “delinquent supporters “. That sounded to me as if you thought it was a normal brawl between opposing football supporters. I think there was more to it than that..

Moot @BeFluentPombear
Your point is moot.
Accusing people you don't agree with of being vile is not an argument.
What do you mean by antisemitism by left wing people? What have they said ?

Extraordinary and incredibly simplistic. You are telling a Jewish person how she has experienced antisemitism? You don't seem to understand what being left is either. Left does not mean 'criticising Israel'. It doesn't even automatically mean supporting human rights (just as a Cuban). I don't even know where to start with that tbh. And you don't even need to 'love Israel' to be able to disentangle and understand modern antisemitism.

The far left are anti semitic. Everything going wrong is the Jews fault. The confiict is all Israel’s fault, they never condemn Hamas who started the conflict and built the terror tunnels strategically to maximise civilian deaths. The far left even support Hamas and call them resistance fighters. Like what they did on October 7th could ever be called resistance, you’d have to be a psychopath to believe it was justified. The far left are very anti semitic.

Those 'Jewish activists' should be very ashamed for tearing down posters of fellow Jews held hostage by Hamas terrorists. Not in my name.

And correcting someone (which was probably autocorrect) doesn't make you look clever. Do you really have opinions on this subject and yet don't know about left wing antisemitism? How bizarre. Lots to read as its very well documented but I'd start with David Hirsh 'Leftwing Antisemitism'.

They are idiots who have fallen for the propaganda no doubt. Absolutely agree they are a disgrace.

Well as I said if you think differently show me why?
Edited to add : I didn't also say it's a normal brawl between football supporters. I didn't - I said it was a brawl between deliquent football hooligans and my previous comment had a link to the violence the Maccabi fans have participated in previously as well by hospitalising a man. So we have their historical thuggery, the eye witnesses and videos of them in the days before the match beating up local taxi drivers and destroying a taxi, and then what looks like them coming up against people just as deliquent and violent as them but with an opposing point of view.

amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/apr/01/shame-of-anitsemitism-on-left-has-long-malign-history

This is from the BBC report
www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/ckgv4mdr9y8o
Gal Binyanmin Tshuva, 29, told the BBC he was attacked on Wednesday outside a casino after watching a different football game.
"We faced around 20 people who ran towards us. They asked me where I was from, and I said I was from Greece. They said they didn’t believe me and they asked to see my passport.
When he told them he didn't have it, the men beat him, pushed him to the ground and kicked his face, Mr Tshuva said.
"I don’t remember anything after that, and I woke up in an ambulance with blood all over my face, and realised they had broken two of my teeth."
British men Aaron and Jacob, who are Jewish, told the BBC they went to the match, but left early.
Afterwards, they said they saw men yelling antisemitic threats and stamping on an Israeli man. They intervened, helped the man to his feet, and went to leave.
Shortly after, a group asked the men if they were Jewish, and Aaron said that they were British.
“But they said ‘you helped the Jew’, and he punched me in my face and broke my glasses," Aaron said.
“I was bleeding and have a black eye. I’m okay but a bit shaken."

Can you demonstrate that all the victims were delinquent football supporters ?

The posters are of innocent hostages, many of whom were peace activists. One is a British hostage Emily Damari so completely appropriate to put her poster up in the UK. But on the basis that posters are inappropriate becsuse we are not in Gaza, we would have no protests or vigils or expressions of empathy or solidarity etc on either side or indeed for Ukraine, or Aroo Darye, or the women of Afghanistan etc As Im not a little Englander so I couldn't go along with that. Raising awareness of the terrible fate of the hostages is also not pointless to their family members here. I have a colleague at work who is related to a hostage - its not pointless to her. And how do posters & ribbons hurt anyone? Cant you just walk by? The vigil in Brighton is regularly defaced. What are they afraid of?

I mean even the link you sent me everyone was part of the Israeli football supporters? I know you're probably trying to make a point but it's not clear what it is. Violence isn't excusable, but the initial portrayal in the media was obviously completely incorrect - they are even using footage of the Israeli supporters being thuggish in the streets in their reports of them being attacked because they were in such a rush to report it they didn't bother to verify that the men were Maccabi fans not the people who attacked them.

The far-left is an undefined group, there is no objective view or consensus. There are also more than one definition of antisemitism and even more interpretations.
In other words, what you said is not an argument, but rather a statement of your position and a hint of what media you get news from.

You specifically said - they weren’t all innocent victims they were all delinquent football supporters… “ Doesn't mean we have to try and paint these deliquent thugs as innocent victims of antisemitism when all the evidence points to them being part of the usual football violence.”
Do you still think , after reading the news reports, there were no innocent victims?

Actually that summary is a pretty accurate summary of the majority view on the far left thoigh people pay lip service to condemning october 7th. Not everyone obviously (there are independent minded people everywhere) but if you read left publications such as Red Pepper, listen to the leading lights of Stop the War etc those are broadly speaking the positions. If you don't align you will have a hard time. Im on the left, I have experienced theses arguments a lot and been accused many times of not being left wing precisely because I don't fall into line.

I think you're being obtuse. Of course there are innocent victims, for example the taxi driver that was getting his head kicked in by the Maccabi supporters on the days before the match. I'm sure there may be some Israeli fans who they themselves didn't beat those men up but they were being targeted by association (for being part of the group that was beating up locals and singing racist songs) not totally unrelated Jewish Dutch citizens going about their lives which is what I mean by innocent victims . Is it right? No. Are you trying to reframe it into a totally different situation? Yes.

I’m not trying to reframe this into anything. I think you’re the one doing the reframing . I can only go by the news reports and the ones I read suggest this is more than “usual football violence” and innocent victims were attacked because they were Jewish.

I never heard of either media sources.
I would guess I'm not the only one very angry at the hypocrisy of the 'west' (primarily the UK and the US governments) who pay lip service to 'never again' yet keep supporting deaths and sufferings of millions of people.
Children used to be universally holy for humanity. Now tens of thousands of children have been killed in the past 12 months and they can't open their mouths to condemn it. So every time they condemn something else the silence on the children is deafening.

@Limesodaagain I've been away having a life.
You sent a link from 2018 about left wing antisemitism. It's actually now been openly admitted that a lot of this was whipped up within the Labour Party to discredit Corbyn.
"The left " don't have one manifesto or agenda. They generally try to improve conditions for the workers and support international human rights.
The "right" have the interests of capital and the wealthy status quo. It's in the interests of those groups to encourage hatred and division.
Oddly you'll not see many of "the left" supporting discrimination and oppression. There are bad actors everywhere who believe in conspiracies- they are the minority.

@SharonEllis I think the refugees and Lebanese students who've torn down posters are understandably upset.
Should people be afraid of "missing"posters for dead children in Gaza? Or children held in indefinite detention in Palestine?
Or how about a poster which explains just why Netanyahu will not enter negotiations to release the hostages or perhaps one to explain the Hannibal directive?
None of these things are directly connected to the football violence, but they do inform it and there is a context. Morally minded people everywhere were offended by October 7th and are now offended by Israeli actions in the Levant.
Some people are very very angry, this is a bad thing.

A very interesting read
Introduction:
This took place at Amsterdam Central Station, on the evening of November 7th.
The video compares footage from 2 sources, a Dutch photographer and a Dutch journalist. The photographer's footage was used without her consent and disseminated with false context about who was attacking who. The mainstream media has falsely reported on this footage.
The additional footage in this video, from Dutch journalist Ome Bender, shows Maccabi Tel Aviv fans arming themselves with makeshift weapons (wooden planks/metal poles/etc.) and charging at people throughout the night. At one point a Maccabi Tel Aviv fan tries to get Bender to stop recording.
Background:
Photographer Annet de Graaf's original footage was clipped and spread online, with the false claim that locals had attack Maccabi Tel Aviv fans - when it was actually the other way around.
Mainstream media like Sky News, MSNBC and even Al Jazeera have used the clip and have falsely attributed the violence to locals.
de Graaf has reached out to police to become an official witness, since she recorded the footage. She has also expressed her public disappointment with how the media has falsely reported on this particular incident:
https://x.com/iAnnetnl/status/1854957508193906719
de Graaf has confirmed her footage matches with Ome Bender's footage. She also publicly says she will sue the pro-Israel X user in-question for disseminating misinformation.
Quote:
Maccabi supporters were agressive and attacked the Amsterdam citizens in front of Central Station.
https://x.com/iAnnetnl/status/1855058911918739484
https://x.com/iAnnetnl/status/1855158106281677212
She received an apology from at least one journalist for the misleading reporting:
https://x.com/iAnnetnl/status/1855245275880702458
Sources:
Photographer Annet de Graaf's original footage which was selectively clipped by someone online, then disseminated to falsely claim that locals had attacked Maccabi Tel Aviv fans.
de Graaf confronting another X user over their misinformation about the clip

News footage from QudSen:
https://x.com/QudsNen/status/1855135211102634302

So put posters up of dead children in gaza if you think that will help, noone is stopping you and nobody has said they are afraid of them. The point of the hoatage posters is more that we hope they are alive & that efforts will be made by our government to help facilitate getting them released. Especially British citizen Emily Damari.I dont actually think most of the people tearing down posters are refugees from the region. There is lots of documentation.