Amsterdam

[EricInk]

I can't believe how unbalanced the media reporting is of the events last night

The maccabi fans were behaving atrociously and inciting conflict the entire day, pulling down flags, chanting 'fuck Palestine' and intimidating Dutch Arabs

I think the coverage has been fine (i don't want to say balanced because i don't want to imply any of this behaviour was fair). The Israeli supporters behaved terribly and the 'other side' should have risen above it, they behaved even worse by being violent.

I mean those of you who think this all happened because of the behaviour of the football supporters....can you explain why Jewish schools and synagogues need so much security?

absolutely none of which have involved football hooligans
So perhaps this is an example of the football hooliganism this team in particular engages in frequently instead of an unprovoked antisemitic attack. I agree with you that antisemitism and attacks on Jewish people are nothing new and that's awful. Doesn't mean we have to try and paint these deliquent thugs as innocent victims of antisemitism when all the evidence points to them being part of the usual football violence.

I mean those of you who think this all happened because of the behaviour of the football supporters..
It didn't. I thought that yesterday but with the reports now it is obviously premeditated.
In saying that the Maccabi fans are a toxic bunch of racists but that does not mean they (or anyone else) deserve the frightening targeted antisemitic attacks.

Mumsnet remove any comment that is reported, they do not read through them thoroughly.

My point was in response to someone saying “if the Jewish community responding to the chants they hear weekly in the same way”. My point is that will never happen because we don’t have a problem with violent jewish gangs. That is just a fact, we don’t. It’s not a coincidence we have not seen the same violent response from them. All groups have wrong, I am not saying they don’t. But in Europe Arab gangs are becoming more and more of a problem, with no go areas becoming more common as a result. It would be racist if I said all Arabs are in gangs but I am NOT saying that. But there are a lot of gangs taking over our streets calling for violence against Jews etc, we are seeing it weekly here. So this violent response in Amsterdam is not surprising to many at all. Not much is needed to provoke groups who already have these intentions and are already involved in criminal activity. As I have stated before civilised people would have called the police of the specific people targeting taxi driver etc. But instead they battered and ran over any Jew they could find. You and others on this thread have been trying to justify this or say both sides were the same. That is simply not true. Anti semitism is a serious problem atm and Europe have an obligation to deal with that effectively.

Physically assaulting people and smashing their cars is also violence it's not "behaving terribly" though.

Just stop. You are suggesting one group of people is civilised and another is not. Absolutely call out violent thugs and violent gangs but stop suggesting it has anything to to with their race or ethnicity. That is racist. You can double down all you want but the definition of racism is clear

The level of violence on both sides was not the same. That is clear from all the footage from both sides we have all seen. The Israelis were subjected to much much more violence.

You are the one who’s come on a thread about the extreme violence a minority group have been subjected to and excused this behaviour. I am tired of people on this thread implying they all deserved it. That is anti semitic which as I have said is getting all too common in Europe.

Exactly what I told her up thread 😬

You are the one who’s come on a thread about the extreme violence a minority group have been subjected to and excused this behaviour.
Where have I excused it. Read back over my posts. I haven't

I am tired of people on this thread implying they all deserved it. That is anti semitic which as I have said is getting all too common in Europe.
Yes that is antisemitic but when YOU use racist supremest language against another group your point is lost because you are no better than the antisemites you clearly have your own prejudices.

I have not used any supremest language. You are talking nonsense. It is not about me. I am simply stating the reason that Jewish people living in Europe haven’t responded the same way to chants towards them that are occurring every weekend. But let’s be clear it wouldn’t be ok at all if they did, offensive chants do NOT condone physical violence under any circumstances.

By stating that both sides are wrong you are saying that one provoked the other. Nothing provoked the attack on random Jews on the street. It was planned by these gangs before the game anyway, that has now been reported and WhatsApp messages have been shared.

I have not used any supremest language.
Your initial post, now deleted, said one group of people were more civilised than another. That is supremest language, the belief that one group is superior to another.

By stating that both sides are wrong you are saying that one provoked the other.
Can you quote me where I've said this? Because I don't think I have

I'm sorry I can't move on from your words in your initial post. I don't accept that calling out antisemitism can be done with racism against another group. It doesn't work, both are wrong.

The response to offensive chants have been more civilised from one side. The Jews have been subjected to much more offensive chants on a weekly basis. We have seen this throughout Europe and are tired of it not being called out for what it is. The gangs doing this are RACIST and anti semitic. Me calling out their RACISM is not racist. Nice deflecting though.

Doesn't mean we have to try and paint these deliquent thugs as innocent victims of antisemitism when all the evidence points to them being part of the usual football violence.

So - to be clear- you are suggesting that the victims of the antisemitic violence were all delinquent thugs ?

And the orchestrated hunting down of people identified as Jewish is a usual part of football violence in Amsterdam?

@Millie1501 this is utter nonsense. To say all Jewish people have been more civilised is just plain wrong and also racist against Muslims and Arabs.

It's obvious from all these threads in Mumsnet that there are people who can't separate Judaism from an Israeli identity. The last thing Israelis have shown themselves to be in football support is civilised.

Israelis who have dual citizenship have also had the choice of fighting in the IDF and then reintegrating into civilian society in Europe.

Jewish people in Europe, including the UK, have separately faced increasing antisemitism which predates the current situation in Gaza. Most of it is encouraged and whipped up by the far right ( including Islamic far right) and has involved horrific violence against schools and shops.
Muslims have faced increasing Islamophobia.
Could we just stop with all the hate ?

From all the coverage I have read, victims of violence were local Moroccan taxi drivers and Maccabi supporters. You could send me something to show otherwise? From all the videos I have seen those have been the people I've seen being beaten up and what the eye witnesses have said.

Nothing in my post said hunting down Jewish people was usual part of football? Violence between football hooligans is usual though, yes.

Ok I think my point is lost on people. Someone mentioned if Jewish people had responded with the same violence to the chants they hear every week in Europe. So I was referring to the Jews who live in Europe not doing that, not the Israelis who went to the football. I simply stated a fact as to why they haven’t responded the same way to gangs calling for violence against Jews, celebrating October 7th and tearing down posters of children who were killed. You might get the odd incident of retaliation but nothing like seen in Amsterdam. That was a well organised criminal gang who wanted to attack Jews, simple as that. A gang similar to all the gangs we are seeing in Europe taking to the streets with their anti semitism. The anti semitism in Europe has been happening well before these Israelis came over so it’s not an excuse for it. Me pointing out their racism is not racist. Are you seriously defending these violent gangs? Do you think they represent an entire group? I should hope not.

You have changed how you are describing this. Your initial post was racist supremest language. This post is not.

Me pointing out their racism is not racist
No it isn't but that's not what you initially did you initially suggested Arabs were not as civilised as Jews. It has been deleted now, so maybe just reflect a bit on your own prejudices.

@Millie1501 I've seen some very good points made about the hostage posters.
Some of the people who've torn them down are refugees who have suffered at the hands of Israel and frankly, hate them for a reason.
Other people have said quite rightly that hostage ID posters in North London are pointless as the hostages are in Gaza.
Still others have asked- why are there no posters of the people held indefinitely in detention by Israel?
Finally, Jewish activists have also torn down these posters, because they realise that the situation in Gaza is not about antisemitism but about Israel now refusing to accept the rule of international law or to sensibly negotiate the release of the hostages and seek peace.

yes the far left (and even not that far left) opinion on Jews has never been good and the hate they have towards us is extreme.

I don’t want to derail the post, but the Corbyn years were dire and I found living through his whipped up ideological cult like followers very stressful - and he wasn’t even prime minister, yet he still caused catastrophic damage to British Jews.

@BeFluentPombear how do we talk over each other on a forum?
I think you're confusing Jewish and Israel again.
If left means supporting human rights of Palestinians and criticism of Israel, yes that's going to upset people who love Israel.

Hostage posters being torn down is inexcusable. There is still a British hostage out there.

You say that some of the people who tore down posters were refugees who suffered at the hands of Israel so they had a right to do so. Well in that case, the Israel fans in Amsterdam had a right to tear down Palestinian flags because of what they have put their country through.

obviously I am not actually saying these two wrongs make a right - I’m hoping you can see double standard view of what you are saying.

The far right aren't particularly interested in Jews these days because they're too busy being Islamophobic, and they're now pretending they like us so they can use us to create division with Muslims.

As evident by the many deleted messages by a certain poster on this thread, so I think you have a point here.