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Conflict in the Middle East

The aftermath

243 replies

Auvergne63 · 12/10/2024 10:39

All wars end. I use the term "war" very loosely as I don't view this as a war.
What will happen to the Gazans? How can live in such devastation? How can they deal with so much trauma? Will they ever recover?
Gaza faces a massive reconstruction challenge. Here are key facts and figures | Reuters
The former Israeli prime minister Olmert thinks that Netanyahu has no plan for after the war. He has been a strident critic of his actions.
Ex-Israeli PM makes devastating condemnation of Netanyahu’s war in Gazan | The Independent
Here is a link to his peace proposal in collaboration with Nasser al-Kidwa
Former Israeli PM and former Palestinian foreign minister lay out joint plan to end Israel-Hamas war | CBC News

Ex-Israeli PM makes devastating condemnation of Netanyahu’s war in Gaza

Exclusive: Ehud Olmert tells The Independent that the ‘arrogance’ of his successor led to catastrophic security failures that allowed the bloody Hamas attack and that continuing an untenable military mission while hostages are still being held would be...

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/netanyahu-olmert-gaza-offensive-israel-b2493430.html

OP posts:
dontcryformeargentina · 14/10/2024 08:24

Catatonican · 13/10/2024 10:55

As much as I hate to say it, as the two are not interchangeable, but this won't end well for Israelis or Jews. The amount of hatred this war has created towards the two, as a consequence of the Israeli government actions is significant. A price will be paid, not now, but over the course of time.

I agree with this.

Notaflippinclue · 14/10/2024 09:22

Interesting article in the Times on Saturday about the expulsion of 14 million Germans from their homes in the East in 1945 half a million died the world didn't care because of revelations of the holocaust. He goes on to say Israel could persue the expulsion of Palestinians from the West Bank and Egypt should accept the displaced people of Gaza as they say Arabs have many countries - Israel has only one.

Fruhstuck · 14/10/2024 09:31

ismu · 13/10/2024 21:48

@Hunglikeapolevaulter Israel can't just be the Jewish homeland. Palestinians live there too and it's their own country.
They need to be able to have equal rights of return to their own homes and to be entitled to citizenship just as Jewish citizens are. It's a ridiculous state of affairs which can only be compared to South Africa before Mandela.

Do the hundreds of thousands of Jews driven out of Arab countries in the 20th century also have a "right of return"?

SharonEllis · 14/10/2024 09:42

Notaflippinclue · 14/10/2024 09:22

Interesting article in the Times on Saturday about the expulsion of 14 million Germans from their homes in the East in 1945 half a million died the world didn't care because of revelations of the holocaust. He goes on to say Israel could persue the expulsion of Palestinians from the West Bank and Egypt should accept the displaced people of Gaza as they say Arabs have many countries - Israel has only one.

What's the reference please? Or at least the author?

OctoberOctopus · 14/10/2024 09:43

"All humans want to live in safety with their loved ones, but peace won't be found in bombs, destruction and despair."

It appears some humans don't want this. I think often people speak from theory own beliefs. Look into the mindset of a terrorist and you will find different values.

OctoberOctopus · 14/10/2024 09:44

Fruhstuck · 14/10/2024 09:31

Do the hundreds of thousands of Jews driven out of Arab countries in the 20th century also have a "right of return"?

Imagine that.

Notaflippinclue · 14/10/2024 09:45

Max Hastings Times October 12th page 25

Whatsinanamehey · 14/10/2024 09:48

Notaflippinclue · 14/10/2024 09:22

Interesting article in the Times on Saturday about the expulsion of 14 million Germans from their homes in the East in 1945 half a million died the world didn't care because of revelations of the holocaust. He goes on to say Israel could persue the expulsion of Palestinians from the West Bank and Egypt should accept the displaced people of Gaza as they say Arabs have many countries - Israel has only one.

So he is advocating for the ethnic cleansing of indigenous people from their homeland. And do you support this?

itwasnevermine · 14/10/2024 09:49

The aftermath with be an even further destabilised region, with more of the same. This fighting does nothing but deepen divides and allow the terrorist groups to emerge and gain support.

Daftasabroom · 14/10/2024 10:51

Notaflippinclue · 14/10/2024 09:22

Interesting article in the Times on Saturday about the expulsion of 14 million Germans from their homes in the East in 1945 half a million died the world didn't care because of revelations of the holocaust. He goes on to say Israel could persue the expulsion of Palestinians from the West Bank and Egypt should accept the displaced people of Gaza as they say Arabs have many countries - Israel has only one.

How incredibly ignorant and utterly racist.

GhostCicada · 14/10/2024 11:25

Notaflippinclue · 14/10/2024 09:22

Interesting article in the Times on Saturday about the expulsion of 14 million Germans from their homes in the East in 1945 half a million died the world didn't care because of revelations of the holocaust. He goes on to say Israel could persue the expulsion of Palestinians from the West Bank and Egypt should accept the displaced people of Gaza as they say Arabs have many countries - Israel has only one.

Arabs, are they all the same? Seems a bit racist to me.

Notaflippinclue · 14/10/2024 11:41

Are Arabs all the same? Are Jews all the same? Take it up with Max Hastings

MissyB1 · 14/10/2024 11:58

itwasnevermine · 14/10/2024 09:49

The aftermath with be an even further destabilised region, with more of the same. This fighting does nothing but deepen divides and allow the terrorist groups to emerge and gain support.

Yes we've seen it happen before and sadly history will repeat itself. There are no "winners" in this situation. Israel are deluding themselves that this is the way to make themselves feel safer.

ScrollingLeaves · 14/10/2024 12:01

Daftasabroom · 14/10/2024 10:51

How incredibly ignorant and utterly racist.

Daftasabroom had responded to this post:

@Notaflippinclue · Today 09:22

Interesting article in the Times on Saturday about the expulsion of 14 million Germans from their homes in the East in 1945 half a million died the world didn't care because of revelations of the holocaust. He goes on to say Israel could persue the expulsion of Palestinians from the West Bank and Egypt should accept the displaced people of Gaza as they say Arabs have many countries - Israel has only one

……………

This description of the Max Hastings article in The Times October 12th may have given possibly have given you the wrong impression @Daftasabroom (I am not sure if you were meaning M H was ignorant and racist?)

Max Hastings, the military historian who wrote the article, was not suggesting what Israel should do but what they may well do.

He also calls Netanyahu out on an act of lying ( predictably Netanyahu had called Max Hastings a liar for saying he [Netanyahu] had said something he had said but wanted to pretend he had not).

Attached is a screen shot of the whole article so people can read it for themselves.
Unfortunately I don’t have a link to an in-line version.

This is the last paragraph:

” If Israel seeks to exploit its
indisputable military dominance to further enlarge its territory and rid itself of proximate enemies and unwanted Arab citizens, it will follow many precedents in which justice has seldom, if ever, been a factor.Whether such a policy would serve the historic interests of the Israeli people is much more doubtful.”

The aftermath
ScrollingLeaves · 14/10/2024 12:05

SharonEllis · 14/10/2024 09:42

What's the reference please? Or at least the author?

@SharonEllis I have just posted a screen shot of the article.

Max Hastings ( you can see Wikipedia about him.)
The article is in:
The Times
Sat 12 October

Fordian · 14/10/2024 12:05

The Max Hastings article is interesting.

My wannabe German MIL in 1979 had been expelled with her family from Hungary in the mid 1940s. To her it was 'just one of those things'; she said they regarded it as 'to the victor, the spoils'.

As a previous poster upthread posted, I wonder that Hamas thought the outcome of Oct 7 would be? And why didn't 'The World' forcefully condemn Hamas then?

Fordian · 14/10/2024 12:07

Israeli one-state solution would take terrible toll

www.thetimes.com/article/4a9bd9f9-76a4-4292-a759-d20963d2f815?shareToken=973aaad8ea86efb66155608f8f297d7e

cantthinkofausername26 · 14/10/2024 12:08

Hunglikeapolevaulter · 13/10/2024 19:38

Genocide is genocide.

This conflict isn't that.

Tell that to the innocent people being slaughtered in their tents.

itwasnevermine · 14/10/2024 12:10

www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/c80r2y47rz4t?post=asset%3A1f3cecfa-a5c4-41af-9bd5-2d0b460c320c#post

I don't think the Israeli government plan on there being anything left in Gaza for people to claim in a two state solution

Daftasabroom · 14/10/2024 12:34

ScrollingLeaves · 14/10/2024 12:01

Daftasabroom had responded to this post:

@Notaflippinclue · Today 09:22

Interesting article in the Times on Saturday about the expulsion of 14 million Germans from their homes in the East in 1945 half a million died the world didn't care because of revelations of the holocaust. He goes on to say Israel could persue the expulsion of Palestinians from the West Bank and Egypt should accept the displaced people of Gaza as they say Arabs have many countries - Israel has only one

……………

This description of the Max Hastings article in The Times October 12th may have given possibly have given you the wrong impression @Daftasabroom (I am not sure if you were meaning M H was ignorant and racist?)

Max Hastings, the military historian who wrote the article, was not suggesting what Israel should do but what they may well do.

He also calls Netanyahu out on an act of lying ( predictably Netanyahu had called Max Hastings a liar for saying he [Netanyahu] had said something he had said but wanted to pretend he had not).

Attached is a screen shot of the whole article so people can read it for themselves.
Unfortunately I don’t have a link to an in-line version.

This is the last paragraph:

” If Israel seeks to exploit its
indisputable military dominance to further enlarge its territory and rid itself of proximate enemies and unwanted Arab citizens, it will follow many precedents in which justice has seldom, if ever, been a factor.Whether such a policy would serve the historic interests of the Israeli people is much more doubtful.”

Apologies to @Notaflippinclue I misread Arabs have many countries - Israel has only one as your personal opinion. My bad.

Daftasabroom · 14/10/2024 12:35

itwasnevermine · 14/10/2024 12:10

www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/c80r2y47rz4t?post=asset%3A1f3cecfa-a5c4-41af-9bd5-2d0b460c320c#post

I don't think the Israeli government plan on there being anything left in Gaza for people to claim in a two state solution

Or quite possibly anyone in any authority to negotiate with.

itwasnevermine · 14/10/2024 14:54

@Daftasabroom quite. If there's nobody left (because everyone has been bombed) they can go in under the guise of establishing peace.

Auvergne63 · 14/10/2024 15:13

Fordian · 14/10/2024 12:05

The Max Hastings article is interesting.

My wannabe German MIL in 1979 had been expelled with her family from Hungary in the mid 1940s. To her it was 'just one of those things'; she said they regarded it as 'to the victor, the spoils'.

As a previous poster upthread posted, I wonder that Hamas thought the outcome of Oct 7 would be? And why didn't 'The World' forcefully condemn Hamas then?

Your MIL is not representative of displaced people in general. I have work with refugees and they all wanted to go back home.
As a previous poster upthread posted, I wonder that Hamas thought the outcome of Oct 7 would be?
So you believe the Palestinians ( not Hamas) deserve to be bombed, starved, tortured and raped in jail ( and in Gaza too. Rape is used as a weapon of war), deprived of the basics for life? When the Allies bombed Germany to smithereens, did the German civilians deserved to die because they voted the Nazi party in?

And why didn't 'The World' forcefully condemn Hamas then?
The " World" did.

OP posts:
itwasnevermine · 14/10/2024 15:33

@Fordian the world has done nothing but condemn October 7 and much of the west is now using it as a reason to fund a genocide.

SharonEllis · 14/10/2024 15:38

Auvergne63 · 14/10/2024 15:13

Your MIL is not representative of displaced people in general. I have work with refugees and they all wanted to go back home.
As a previous poster upthread posted, I wonder that Hamas thought the outcome of Oct 7 would be?
So you believe the Palestinians ( not Hamas) deserve to be bombed, starved, tortured and raped in jail ( and in Gaza too. Rape is used as a weapon of war), deprived of the basics for life? When the Allies bombed Germany to smithereens, did the German civilians deserved to die because they voted the Nazi party in?

And why didn't 'The World' forcefully condemn Hamas then?
The " World" did.

Nowhere did @Fordian say 'the Palestinians ( not Hamas) deserve to be bombed, starved, tortured and raped in jail ( and in Gaza too. Rape is used as a weapon of war), deprived of the basics for life'. Why do you do this? Its a perfectly reasonable question to ask, what Hamas thought would happen given that they are resonsible for the protection of their citizens.

And I think there are questions to be asked about how forcefully the world condemned Hamas in the aftermath of 7/10. Some parts of the world certainly did, but some were weirdly silent. Just one example - It took the UN's Committee on the Elimination of Discrimination against Women over 2 weeks after 7/10 to issue a vague statement on the 'gendered dimensions' of the conflict when the rape & sexual violence by Hamas against Israeli women in the attack was extreme. There was another UN event about violence against women, which I can't find the details right now, when it wasn't mentioned at all.