The aftermath

[Auvergne63]

All wars end. I use the term "war" very loosely as I don't view this as a war.
What will happen to the Gazans? How can live in such devastation? How can they deal with so much trauma? Will they ever recover?
Gaza faces a massive reconstruction challenge. Here are key facts and figures | Reuters
The former Israeli prime minister Olmert thinks that Netanyahu has no plan for after the war. He has been a strident critic of his actions.
Ex-Israeli PM makes devastating condemnation of Netanyahu’s war in Gazan | The Independent
Here is a link to his peace proposal in collaboration with Nasser al-Kidwa
Former Israeli PM and former Palestinian foreign minister lay out joint plan to end Israel-Hamas war | CBC News

The generation of today who are the leaders of tomorrow will not be arming Israel so that they can continue to use devastating bombs so liberally without a care in the world at how many innocent people they murder. Most certainly not!

Israel can't just be the Jewish homeland. Palestinians live there too and it's their own country.

Israel is the Jewish homeland though. Palestinians live in the West Bank and Gaza. I'm sure any rational person hopes that these two areas will be a functioning and fully-fledged country living in peace alongside Israel one day soon.
Arab Israelis live safely in Israel, and hopefully one day Jewish Palestinians can likewise live safely in Palestine.

And there in lies a problem for Israel as a 'Jewish state'. The way I see it there are three main options.

1. Forever war. Israel however will not be able to count on long term support of the west.
2. Two state solution. I don't see much appetite for this and given current situation, can't see it bringing peace anyway. It would however remove any arguments that attacks on Israel are somehow legitimate and think it's the best hope.
3. Greater Israel with citizenship rights for West Bank and Gaza Palestinians. with seven million Palestinians (and a higher birth rate) and seven million Israelis, Israel will soon, no longer, be the 'Jewish state'.

I know there are many other ways this could go but that’s the main options I see.

They need to be able to have equal rights of return to their own homes and to be entitled to citizenship just as Jewish citizens are. It's a ridiculous state of affairs which can only be compared to South Africa before Mandela.

They unfortunately need to accept that this is no longer their home and that they don't have citizenship of Israel. Othewise the conflict is going to be ongoing, and it's predominantly the Palestinians that suffer.

Israel however will not be able to count on long term support of the west.

I think, because the pro-Palestinians are so loud about it, that people underestimate the quiet support for Israel. Not necessarily Netanyahu obviously, but support for a country designated as a Jewish homeland.

I also don't understand why there are a number of countries who are Muslim states, based on Sharia, yet one Jewish state is apparently one too many.

Quite. Does Israel realize this?

So what do future generations of the Iranian regime do with the likes of us if Israel falls

Greater Israel with citizenship rights for West Bank and Gaza Palestinians. with seven million Palestinians (and a higher birth rate) and seven million Israelis, Israel will soon, no longer, be the 'Jewish state'.

I wonder how this country would look? Would it be a thriving democracy, and safe for Jewish people, women, the LGB community?
I think it would at best go alogn the lines of Lebanon. At best.
At worst, 7 October was a preview.

@Kendodd there was a very interesting News night on R4 with a number of commentators. One suggested that the starting point for a settlement might be "what sacrifices" is each side prepared to make, rather than "what demands".

The combatant to civilian death rate in Gaza is somewhere between 1:1.1 and 1:1.5 which is very very low in war zones with high civilian populations like Gaza. I think the Israeli govt. Is doing what they can to avoid civilian casualties but it's very difficult. And there will be some members of the IDF, like any army who are bad and don't behave as they should but I can tell you the people I know in the IDF are fathers with children of their own who hate that there are any civilian deaths but they are fighting to defend their country, to keep their own families safe.*

Just focusing on kids, the UN reports on Children and Armed Conflict over the last 18 years show that no other conflicts killed a higher number of children in one year. This does not include those among nearly 20,000 people who are missing. tens of thousands of living children are missing limbs or have been orphaned or otherwise traumatized.

Nobody knows the combatant to civilian rate. You are just repeating propaganda. Even Israeli steadfast supporters like the US agree that the civilian death rate is too high. I'm sure there are many upstanding members of the IDF, they are "just following orders" after all.

All humans want to live in safety with their loved ones, but peace won't be found in bombs, destruction and despair.

I'm sure there are many upstanding members of the IDF, they are "just following orders" after all.

Another Nazi reference, you guys just can't help yourselves.

I wonder what Hamas thought would happen when they set out on 7 October to do what they did.

That's what every negotiation entails. Always.

So the IDF soldiers who killed children in the North of Gaza today on the streets did it because they just felt like it? Or were they ordered to?

Some sick people will go to any means to defend the indefensible.

So the IDF soldiers who killed children in the North of Gaza today on the streets did it because they just felt like it? Or were they ordered to?

I highly doubt it's the policy of the State of Israel to deliberately shoot unarmed children so yes that's a deliberately offensive comparison and you know it.

I cannot say whether today's events happened as you describe given the absolute slew of propaganda from both sides that has bombarded social media and even news outlets over the past year.

That's where settlements end very often but rarely where they start. It was an intriguing idea, but unlikely to be much more than a thought experiment.

This is interesting. Are there really no Palestinians in Israel? I would have presumed that there were. I watched a documentary not long ago where Israelis referred to Palestinians in the West Bank as 'Arabs' so it gets kind of confusing.

Google tells me The Arab minority, who are predominantly Muslim, are descended from Palestinian Arabs who remained in Israel when it was founded in the 1948 war in what had been British-ruled Palestine. Is there a reason they aren't referred to as Palestinian Israelis, rather than Arab Israelis? Again Google tells me that Most prefer to be identified as Palestinian citizens of Israel. You seem to feel strongly that they aren't Palestinian Israelis, is there a reason for that?

I am just genuinely curious about this because I do find it all quite confusing. For example you say 'Palestinians live in the West Bank and Gaza' but there are also 60000 Palestinians in the UK, 160000 Palestinians in the US etc but there are really none in Israel?

😂😂What a ridiculous reply!

You think they are daft to write that as their policy? Soldiers have been shooting peacekeepers with the world watching so it's not too difficult to imagine shooting a couple of kids in an area under siege by them. Your naivety is on full display.

And yet over 20% of the Israeli population is not Jewish, whereas the percentage of Jewish people in any of the many majority-Muslim countries is minuscule. But of course that’s because they were driven out.

What an incredible idea! Can you see this bringing lasting peace to the region? Bringing Iran in to rebuild 🤯

Israel just bombed another school murdering many dead women and children. Incase you don't believe it I can share the evidence on here for you. I'm sure someone will still find a way to absolve the IDF from their crimes against humanity. Hundreds of schools bombed repeatedly in Gaza but apparently it's just all self defence. Thousands and thousands of children and babies killed but it's just all self defence according to Israel. The world is no longer blind to this genocide.

And they have also just bombed a hospital in Gaza too. There's no end to their crimes and no end to how many schools and hospitals they continue to bomb.

The killing does not end. How can you justify this! This is a genocide!

TRIGGER WARNING
www.instagram.com/reel/DBFNoL4NJtx/?igsh=MW5odHBpNmJrM2cyOQ==

Surgeon who was in Gaza:

“We saw children with single bullet wounds to the head, which you have to conclude is deliberate targeting. We saw children who gave very clear descriptions of drone attacks. Again, deliberate. The drone comes down, hovers above them, fires,” he said.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/oct/07/postapocalyptic-uk-volunteer-surgeons-reflect-on-time-in-gaza

From a letter to President Biden and Vice President Harris from doctors who served in Gaza
We are 99 American physicians, surgeons, nurse practitioners, nurses, and midwives who have volunteered in the Gaza Strip since October 7, 2023.

Children are universally considered innocents in armed conflict. However, every single signatory to this letter saw children in Gaza who suffered violence that must have been deliberately directed at them. Specifically, every one of us who worked in an emergency, intensive care, or surgical setting treated pre-teen children who were shot in the head or chest on a regular or even a daily basis^. It is impossible that such widespread shooting of young children throughout Gaza, sustained over the course of an entire year is accidental or unknown to the highest Israeli civilian and military authorities*
https://www.gazahealthcareletters.org/usa-letter-oct-2-2024

I think the Israelis should give up the West Bank and the Palestinians give up their 'river to the sea' ambition (in fairness both Israelis and Palestinians say this). Although look what happened after Israelis gave up Gaza.
I think the whole creation of a 'Jewish State' is problematic. Regardless of were you put it in the world, this isn't to say it shouldn't have happened. Having a majority Jewish population would involve removing the existing population though and both sides need honesty about this and what happened. There is nowhere in the world, empty, ready and available. Given the history, I completely understand why Jewish people, all over the world, even if they've never even been to Israel, would want a Jewish state with a Jewish government and Jewish army. Just having it as some sort of personal insurance policy, somewhere you know you can go and the government and army will have your back. I do get that and don't blame them for wanting it.