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Conflict in the Middle East

US doctors letter : Death toll in Gaza likely close to 120k

107 replies

EasterIssland · 04/10/2024 07:51

https://www.gazahealthcareletters.org/usa-letter-oct-2-2024

letter written by 99 US doctors to Biden - Harris.

USA Letter | October 2 — Gaza Healthcare Letters

https://www.gazahealthcareletters.org/usa-letter-oct-2-2024

OP posts:
LastTrainEast · 04/10/2024 20:38

It is awful which is why I can't work out is why Hamas (and presumably enough Palestinian supporters to outnumber those who'd like to live) want this to continue so badly.

it's pretty clear that if Hamas released the hostages the world would insist on ending it and sending in masses of aid with food and hordes of people and equipment to rebuild.

World leaders would be tripping over each other to be seen as the 'good guys' coming to help. There'd be TV crews and mobile hospitals. cranes and scores of trucks bringing materials and supplies.

Regardless of the motives of Israeli leaders - whatever you might think they are - the pressure would be too much to resist and they'd go along with it.

So there's some upside for Hamas in this we're missing.

cosyoumightknowme · 04/10/2024 20:46

Why, oh why, are Hammas continuing to use the innocent Palestine population as a human shield, knowing how many lives are being lost? Why are they not returning the hostages? Just Why?

EasterIssland · 04/10/2024 20:50

Nentanhayu has already said that the war will continue regardless. If the only reason there is a war in Gaza right now is because of the hostages then Israel wouldn’t be attacking other nearby countries.

also, may I remind that Hamas is not the only one using human shields? Also, you don’t have to commit war crimes in order to get the hostages back.

OP posts:
ToBeDetermined · 04/10/2024 20:55

Oh the irony….
Poster A says this happens:
“Yet on mn if you criticise whats happened in Gaza you are told you hate Jewish people.”

Poster B says, this just doesn’t happen:
“someone says something along the lines of "I always get falsely accused of anti-Semitism when I'm actually just against war" without anyone actually having accused anyone of anything of the sort and then someone, in this case me, feels the need to point out that it's not actually happened.”

And then Poster C actually does accuse Poster A of antisemitism, proving Poster A’s point that it does happen:
”I find the folk who use that trope, especially repeatedly - usually because they don't like what they're hearing and have no other way to respond - are in fact deeply prejudiced towards Jewish people (at best).”

This is very common on the CME board.

Silence1 · 04/10/2024 20:57

cosyoumightknowme · 04/10/2024 20:46

Why, oh why, are Hammas continuing to use the innocent Palestine population as a human shield, knowing how many lives are being lost? Why are they not returning the hostages? Just Why?

Because the more Palestinians that the democratically elected Govt of Israel kill the more the world hates Israel. And Israel are killing a lot just now on top of the tens of thousands they have already killed.
Israel has superior fire power by miles so Hamas uses hostages as leverage.
I am not sure how well that is working just now as I'm not sure the Israeli Govt is prioritizing hostages and its support amongst its electorate is at a high so...?

ToBeDetermined · 04/10/2024 21:03

it's pretty clear that if Hamas released the hostages the world would insist on ending it and sending in masses of aid with food and hordes of people and equipment to rebuild.

Sorry, but what you describe is the gist of several ceasefire proposals drafted up by mediators that Hamas accepted but Nethanyu rejected.

In addition, humanitarian aid should never withheld or blocked as a condition of a ceasefire or to pressure negotiations. Humanitarian aid is a legal obligation of Israel to provide during hostilities, as is the legal requirenent to not destroy civilian infrastructure.

Polka83 · 04/10/2024 21:27

CNN article noting that the degree of bombing of Gaza is unprecedented and the IDF/ Israel is now bombing Lebanon in a similar manner.

»But as Israel’s campaign to disarm Hezbollah continues, civilians are paying the highest price, including 127 children who have been killed in less than three weeks, according to the health ministry.
On September 23 alone, at least 558 people – including 50 children and 94 women – were killed. »

«
“This isn’t normal,” Tripp said of both the scale and size of Israel’s strikes on Lebanon. While Israel’s air campaign is extremely “unusual,” Tripp said its assault on Gaza over the last year – where nearly 60% of buildings are estimated to have been damaged from Israeli strikes – have normalized such mass assaults.«

edition.cnn.com/2024/10/04/middleeast/lebanon-israel-aerial-assault-intensity-intl/index.html

MushMonster · 04/10/2024 21:34

LastTrainEast · 04/10/2024 20:38

It is awful which is why I can't work out is why Hamas (and presumably enough Palestinian supporters to outnumber those who'd like to live) want this to continue so badly.

it's pretty clear that if Hamas released the hostages the world would insist on ending it and sending in masses of aid with food and hordes of people and equipment to rebuild.

World leaders would be tripping over each other to be seen as the 'good guys' coming to help. There'd be TV crews and mobile hospitals. cranes and scores of trucks bringing materials and supplies.

Regardless of the motives of Israeli leaders - whatever you might think they are - the pressure would be too much to resist and they'd go along with it.

So there's some upside for Hamas in this we're missing.

Did you watch the interview with the Hamas leader by the BBC aired yesterday?
He was in Qatar at the time.
No regrets, denying some of the facts of October the 7th and he did not show an ounce of care, neither for the Israeli victims and hostages or for his own people. Nothing. His own people seems to be expendable to him. Yes, he says they want a Palestinian Estate, but he seemed rotally unfazed by what the reality in Gaza is at present.
We all know that Hamas will not act in the interest of the Palestinians.
Somehow, in their twisted minds it makes some sense, but we cannot understand it. As you say, they could stop it, but they will not. These guys travel around, sleep in their beds, wake up to breakfast, dress in suits, have lunch and dinner and so on, while the Palestinian civilians suffer and suffer and suffer. But watching the interview, there is no guilt, nothing.

Zzippit · 04/10/2024 21:42

ToBeDetermined · 04/10/2024 20:55

Oh the irony….
Poster A says this happens:
“Yet on mn if you criticise whats happened in Gaza you are told you hate Jewish people.”

Poster B says, this just doesn’t happen:
“someone says something along the lines of "I always get falsely accused of anti-Semitism when I'm actually just against war" without anyone actually having accused anyone of anything of the sort and then someone, in this case me, feels the need to point out that it's not actually happened.”

And then Poster C actually does accuse Poster A of antisemitism, proving Poster A’s point that it does happen:
”I find the folk who use that trope, especially repeatedly - usually because they don't like what they're hearing and have no other way to respond - are in fact deeply prejudiced towards Jewish people (at best).”

This is very common on the CME board.

Missing out the rest of the initial statement misrepresents the context of that exchange:
"No other discussion, you just hate Jews. Which is so far off the mark it would be laughable if it wasn't such a serious accusation. But it stops all discussion/criticism stone dead.
Which im beginning to think is the point of it."

The trope is accusing posters, in particular Jewish ones, of "crying antisemitism" to shut down debate or criticism of Israel. In this case, two posts in on a brand new thread about doctors in Gaza. Posters trotting out the "Oh here we go, they'll say I'm antisemitic when I'm just criticising Israel!" before anything of the sort has even been said is indeed very common on CITME as a way to forestall being called out for any bigoted thing they may go on to say. Posting specifically to complain about the perceived or anticipated behaviour of a certain group based on an antisemitic trope is signposting towards a certain mindset.

ToBeDetermined · 04/10/2024 21:42

Hamas can’t unilaterally stop the war. They’re just not powerful enough.
The UNSC and the ICJ couldn’t stop the war, so how is a scrappy terrorist gang going to make Israel and the USA stop?

Polka83 · 04/10/2024 21:42

We still have posters who continue to blame Hamas for the decisions taken by the IDF-
its as if Hamas is orchestrating the IDF to release the bombs onto Gaza.

Even the IDF are telling Netanyahu that the objectives of bombing Gaza of completely removing Hamas is impossible and that conditions Netanyahu is asking for ceasefire with Hamas are unnecessary.

How much vengeance is required?

EasterIssland · 04/10/2024 21:46

From the link I posted (& the topic of the thread)

It is likely that the death toll from this conflict is already greater than 118,908, an astonishing 5.4% of Gaza’s population.

5.4%. How many more will likely die because of this war?

OP posts:
ToBeDetermined · 04/10/2024 21:47

@Zzippit
I think the context is clear enough in what I quoted.
Poster C accused poster A of being antisemitic, after poster A says antisemtism accusations are a thing and Poster B said it actually doesn’t happen.

The specific rationale presented by C to support the accusation of antisemtism towards A was superfluous to highlighting the irony of an occurrence that poster B and C simultaneously denied the existence of while doing it.

ButterfliesnWaterfalls · 04/10/2024 21:55

So sad.

Just read the article.

A genocide is taking place and the perpetrators are getting away with bombing more countries and assassinating people. Bombs in pagers. Doctors being killed. Children dying daily. They didn’t even spare the hospitals or the sick or needy.

And there will be a group of people defending them and justifying this slaughter.

😢

ToBeDetermined · 04/10/2024 22:02

Some key points from the letter, the bolding is not my addition:

We are 99 American physicians, surgeons, nurse practitioners, nurses, and midwives who have volunteered in the Gaza Strip since October 7, 2023. Combined, we spent 254 weeks volunteering in Gaza’s hospitals and clinics.

In addition to our medical and surgical expertise, many of us have a public health background, as well as experience working in humanitarian and conflict zones, including Ukraine during the brutal Russian invasion. Some of us are veterans and reservists.

With only marginal exceptions, everyone in Gaza is sick, injured, or both. This includes every national aid worker, every international volunteer, and probably every Israeli hostage: every man, woman, and child.

We have photographic evidence of life-threatening malnutrition in our patients, especially children, that we are eager to share with you.

An astonishingly high percentage of our surgical incisions became infected from the combination of malnutrition, impossible operating conditions, lack of basic sanitation supplies such as soap, and lack of surgical supplies and medications, including antibiotics.

We worry that unknown thousands have already died from the lethal combination of malnutrition and disease, and that tens of thousands more will die in the coming months, especially with the onset of the winter rains in Gaza. Most of them will be young children.

Gaza was the first time I held a baby’s brains in my hand. The first of many.
Dr. Mark Perlmutter, orthopedic and hand surgeon
Children are universally considered innocents in armed conflict. However, every single signatory to this letter saw children in Gaza who suffered violence that must have been deliberately directed at them. Specifically, every one of us who worked in an emergency, intensive care, or surgical setting treated pre-teen children who were shot in the head or chest on a regular or even a daily basis. It is impossible that such widespread shooting of young children throughout Gaza, sustained over the course of an entire year is accidental or unknown to the highest Israeli civilian and military authorities.

Israel has destroyed more than half of Gaza’s healthcare resources and has killed nearly one thousand Palestinian healthcare workers, more than one out of every 20 healthcare workers in Gaza.

We met healthcare personnel in Gaza who worked at hospitals that had been raided and destroyed by Israel. Many of these colleagues of ours were taken by Israel during the attacks. They all told us a slightly different version of the same story: in captivity they were barely fed, continuously physically and psychologically abused, and finally dumped naked on the side of a road. Many told us they were subjected to mock executions and other forms of mistreatment and torture. Far too many of our healthcare colleagues told us they were simply waiting to die.

ButterfliesnWaterfalls · 04/10/2024 22:08

It’s disgusting that the so called ‘civilised’ democratic societies are the ones causing all this death and destruction around the world.

ToBeDetermined · 04/10/2024 22:12

The malnutrition, the starvation, the lack of clean water and sewage facilities, the lack of electricity, the lack of medical supplies and hygiene products- these are all humanitarian necessities that are the legal responsibility of Israel to ensure safe access and distribution of within Gaza or any other occupied area during hostilities.

This is true even while you are fighting terrorists like Hamas.

This is an entirely seperate category of war crimes to deliberately killing civilians with bombs and bullets. The deaths that result can also be used as evidence of genocide.

Polka83 · 04/10/2024 22:13

@EasterIssland @ToBeDetermined
It is heartbreaking to hear about the children who escaped the bombing are now dying of malnutrition.

The fact that this letter is from US healthcare providers is important. Hopefully it will be well reported in mainstream media in the states.

EasterIssland · 04/10/2024 22:19

I’ll leave a link to the British doctors letter as it’s worth reading as well

https://www.gazahealthcareletters.org/uk-letter

UK Letter — Gaza Healthcare Letters

https://www.gazahealthcareletters.org/uk-letter

OP posts:
MushMonster · 04/10/2024 22:20

Hamas started this. They knew what would happen very well. But no care, whatsoever.
Hezbollah should have not fired rocket after rocket, for months on end.
Neither should Israel have built settlement after settlement in Palestinian land and send their army there.

It is true that Netanyahu is adamant that total victory will be the end of these wars, nothing else. Whatever total victory means to him, no idea. For the civilians it seems to mean being bombed regularly, scared, displaced of your home, lost family members. Whether you are in Israel , Gaza or Lebanon. Even the West Bank. Gaza has suffered the highest number of deaths, injuries and destruction. Lebanon starts to look a bit the same in some of the TV images coming out.
They all need to stop. End of.

Sit on a negotiating table. Sit there till a ceasefire is agreed. Release hostages. Allow aid in. Stop. Go for the two estates or one estate, or whatever solution they agree. Just get it done, instead of ignore what we signed, twist a word here, bomb this guy there and start a war all over again.
This conflict will not be resolved by force. Ever. They already tried that and failed decade after decade.

Polka83 · 04/10/2024 22:23

The CNN did report on a letter written by medics in July. The article is also heart breaking and horrifying- particularly in how children were targeted.

« He recalled two patients aged around six years old, who had suffered gunshots to their heads and chests – wounds which suggested they had been deliberately targeted, he said.
“No kid gets shot twice by a sniper by mistake,” Perlmutter said, adding that the shots were “dead center” to their chests.

amp.cnn.com/cnn/2024/07/26/world/open-letter-45-us-physicians-gaza

Dulra · 04/10/2024 22:33

MushMonster · 04/10/2024 22:20

Hamas started this. They knew what would happen very well. But no care, whatsoever.
Hezbollah should have not fired rocket after rocket, for months on end.
Neither should Israel have built settlement after settlement in Palestinian land and send their army there.

It is true that Netanyahu is adamant that total victory will be the end of these wars, nothing else. Whatever total victory means to him, no idea. For the civilians it seems to mean being bombed regularly, scared, displaced of your home, lost family members. Whether you are in Israel , Gaza or Lebanon. Even the West Bank. Gaza has suffered the highest number of deaths, injuries and destruction. Lebanon starts to look a bit the same in some of the TV images coming out.
They all need to stop. End of.

Sit on a negotiating table. Sit there till a ceasefire is agreed. Release hostages. Allow aid in. Stop. Go for the two estates or one estate, or whatever solution they agree. Just get it done, instead of ignore what we signed, twist a word here, bomb this guy there and start a war all over again.
This conflict will not be resolved by force. Ever. They already tried that and failed decade after decade.

Sit on a negotiating table. Sit there till a ceasefire is agreed. Release hostages. Allow aid in. Stop
Agree. No one gets to leave until a ceasefire, hostage release and two state solution agreed. Lock the door and lose the key

MushMonster · 04/10/2024 22:36

I really wish we could lock them in there!

Zebrashavestripes · 04/10/2024 22:39

The situation is awful and I know this thread (and many other threads ) are about Gaza. However, there are many other conflicts in the world that aren't receiving anything like the same attention or condemnation. For example, according to the UN "a staggering 14 million children are in desperate need of lifesaving assistance" , 8 million people displaced. https://news.un.org/en/story/2024/03/1147287

11 months into Sudan war, ‘world’s worst hunger crisis’ looms

Nearly 11 months since rival generals declared war in Sudan, UN humanitarians warned on Wednesday that the conflict risks triggering “the world’s worst hunger crisis”.

https://news.un.org/en/story/2024/03/1147287

SharonEllis · 04/10/2024 22:42

ButterfliesnWaterfalls · 04/10/2024 22:08

It’s disgusting that the so called ‘civilised’ democratic societies are the ones causing all this death and destruction around the world.

Dont be ridiculous.
Sudanese civil war: At last count over 20,000 people killed, 10s of 1000s injured, 7.7 million internally displaced and more than 2.1 million refugees.

Around 16k died in Myanmar last year, 1000s died in Nigeria, Burkina Faso & DRC, the ongoing genocide of the Uigyurs in China, persecution, murder & complete denial of human rights in Iran & Afghanistan.
That's just off the top of my head.

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