US doctors letter : Death toll in Gaza likely close to 120k

[EasterIssland]

https://www.gazahealthcareletters.org/usa-letter-oct-2-2024

letter written by 99 US doctors to Biden - Harris.

Thank you @EasterIssland

This letter by 99 US doctors is important. It clearly rebuts certain denials about the Israel/Gaza war.

The stated death toll of 41,800 is a Hamas lie. Is it really?

This letter and the appendix show probative evidence that the human toll in Gaza since October is far higher than is understood in the United States. It is likely that the death toll from this conflict is already greater than 118,908, an astonishing 5.4% of Gaza’s population.

The deaths of civilians are as a result of collateral damage, not intentional, and no war crimes have been committed. Really?

It is questionable that bombing a whole section of refugee camp in order to (reportedly) kill a few Hamas fighters means the many Palestinian deaths are simply collateral damage. But apart from that, what about killing children?

Children are universally considered innocents in armed conflict. However, every single signatory to this letter saw children in Gaza who suffered violence that must have been deliberately directed at them. Specifically, every one of us who worked in an emergency, intensive care, or surgical setting treated pre-teen children who were shot in the head or chest on a regular or even a daily basis. It is impossible that such widespread shooting of young children throughout Gaza, sustained over the course of an entire year is accidental or unknown to the highest Israeli civilian and military authorities.

So it seems that pro-Israeli people see Hamas as being entirely responsible for what has happened in Gaza?

There is no reflection of how Israelis have repeatedly voted in a government which does not want to work with Palestinians to create a 2SS nor how their government has enabled the creation of Hamas in a dangerous game of dividing and conquering your enemy.

This is why Netanyahu and his right wing government has been able to stay in power.

The fear for their safety in Israel has resulted in blind rage that sees no opportunity for reflection on what role Israel has played in stalling a 2SS (eg continuing to expand settlements) nor the subsequent impact of innocent Palestinians at the hands of the IDF over many years.

I think Netanyahu has clearly demonstrated the lives of the hostages are dispensible to his own political goals.

« The report lends credence to charges often leveled at the prime minister – most notably by hostage families – of purposefully prolonging the war and torpedoing deals for his political benefit. Far-right members of Netanyahu’s coalition have pledged to bring down the government should he end the war. »

edition.cnn.com/2024/09/04/middleeast/netanyahu-derailed-hostage-deal-in-july-intl/index.html

@BeretInParis thanks, that's an interesting perspective. So, an 'ends justify the means' approach? Where do the intentional shooting of children and use of torture techniques against healthcare workers and other detainees fit in to that? (Not goading, not trying to offend, just seeking to understand).

Healthcare professionals are very used to making hard decisions, navigating situations where there are no perfect solutions, and having to balance immediate and long-term needs, especially people in emergency response specialities and public health. We still have limits and frameworks, though, so I'm curious about where people feel the limits should be.

@ScrollingLeaves I know people who received kill orders for children even before this conflict. What we're seeing is the widespread implementation of what has been happening for decades. It's a protocol with which people at various levels are comfortable.

@Scirocco I know you're posting in good faith and I appreciate your questions.

I think that all the players in this conflict are indeed adopting 'an ends justify the means' approach. Doesn't make it right. But I believe that's what they're doing, yes.

And your point about medical professionals is a very interesting one. I'm not one, just like I'm not a politician, or a terrorist, or an Israeli, or a Gazan (you get the gist!) but in trying to be empathetic I'd imagine that they are looking at the lives (and unfortunately the bodies) in front of them now, rather than those that could be in the future and understandably prioritise the former.

Sniping at children (why? For fun?) will not bring hostages back or make Israel secure.

Sorry, I got the wrong quote here. This was not a response to EasterIsland.

That is very shocking.

Reading these letters made me cry.

Our reality is so different to those who are currently undergoing this onslaught of daily violence.

#CeasefireNow

These are important questions. There are far too many instances where the IDF have exceeded acceptable limits. The haunting story of little Hind is only one example.

Yes, I think Israel and Hamas seem to both be using that 'ends justifying means' approach. Some of the objectives Israel stated at the start of the conflict seem things it would be hard for any reasonable person to oppose, such as seeking the release of hostages and the bringing to justice of terrorists, but I do struggle to see how the current actions are justifiable - not to the people making the decisions (who appear to think anything is acceptable), but to the people supporting them and keeping them in positions where they can continue to make such choices.

Personally, I feel that nothing - absolutely nothing - justifies either the atrocities of October 7th or the atrocities afterwards, including intentional targeting of children and the torture of detained healthcare workers. Yet people have passionately minimised and dismissed previous reports of these things. I suppose it's hard sometimes to see where some people's 'red lines' are in terms of what is acceptable and what isn't... what would it take for people to say "no, I can't stand alongside this while you do it"...? (that's not to say you've done that at all, as I don't think you have and I do appreciate your perspective).

It's been long-standing. People tend not to want it talked about though.

💯

I agree, normally we would have war correspondents on the ground reporting what is going on. The CPJ issued a sobering report on the lack of access of journalists to Gaza, the detaining of them, and the killing of journalists by Israeli authorities.

On a per capita basis, Israeli authorities now hold the highest number of detained journalists in the world in a given year over the past two decades, followed by Turkey, Iran, and China.

More journalists and media workers [128] have died in the Israel-Gaza war than in any other year since CPJ began documenting journalist killings in 1992. By comparison, 56 journalists were killed in Iraq in 2006 – the next deadliest year. The targeted or indiscriminate killing of journalists, if committed deliberately or recklessly, is a war crime.

https://cpj.org/2024/10/one-year-and-climbing-israel-responsible-for-record-journalist-death-toll/

CPJ’s board of directors: https://cpj.org/about/board-of-directors/.

Terrible as those figures are, they are nowhere near 120k, and I think the figure itself is horrifying. Imagine a graveyard with all those graves marked - the scale must surely give pause for thought.

I think that all the players in this conflict are indeed adopting 'an ends justify the means' approach.

I struggle to see how sniping preteen children, destroying the health infrastructure, blocking humanitarian aid (paid for by other countries), destroying wells and water treatment plants, refusing evacuation of civilian refugees, and refusing the entry of independent investigators and journalists are realistic means to the ends of defeating Hamas and rescuing the hostages.

The dots do not connect.

Its not a competition & I dont think the death of a Palestinian is more or less horrifying than the death of a Nigerian.

But my post was a response to the person claiming that 'democratic societies are the ones causing all this death and destruction around the world'. Which is clearly total nonsense.

@SharonEllis I agree that it isn't only democratic societies that cause death and destruction. It's a peculiar fact that humans have never grown out of war, despite great advances in other areas. I'm a little stunned that you express no emotion at death on such a huge scale in a relatively short period. I suppose you choose not to comment on it, which is your right, of course.

Sorry, what? You have no idea how often and how deeply I have expressed emotion for those who have died in Israel & Gaza. What right have you to demand how and when I should express it and why do you have to involved? My post was a response to someone's nonsensical post & now I have to jump to your tune?

American negotiators are saying Hamas don’t want a ceasefire.

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/10/04/us/politics/sinwar-hamas-israel-hezbollah-iran.html

I would also gently point out that Israel is responding to aggression started by Hezbollah. If they hadn’t fired into Israel then Israel wouldn’t be there right now.

@SharonEllis I don't demand you express anything. As I said, it is your right if you choose to comment on how the figure of 120k dead might affect you. It's the subject of the thread.

Can I also gently point out that Israel would not have invaded Lebanon if Israeli ministers had accepted a US-French mediated ceasefire with Hezbollah on 26 September?

“Western Diplomats: Israeli Ministers' Rejection of Hezbollah Cease-fire Could Lead to All-out War. Members of Netanyahu's cabinet have staunchly opposed the U.S.-French proposal for a 21-day cease-fire between Israel and Hezbollah, with his office dismissing reports of an imminent deal”
https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2024-09-26/ty-article/.premium/ministers-blast-israel-hezbollah-cease-fire-netanyahu-war-to-continue-in-full-force/00000192-2d2d-db7a-a997-adbdbb5d0000

Can I please remind that this thread is about “US doctors letter : Death toll in Gaza likely close to 120k”there are plenty of threads where to discuss ceasefires and who agrees to them and not.

This thread is about what international doctors have seen and demanding to their governments.

thanks