US doctors letter : Death toll in Gaza likely close to 120k

[EasterIssland]

https://www.gazahealthcareletters.org/usa-letter-oct-2-2024

letter written by 99 US doctors to Biden - Harris.

This thread is sickening. We can never mourne or give any space to the human (woman and children) toll of this war at all, without some sort of divisitory comment. Look at the death tolls, and they will be an underestimate. Dark dark times..

Please respect the thread is about the letter several doctors have written about the situation in Gaz. You’re more than welcome to open your own thread with this link.

@ToBeDetermined No the context is not clear enough in what you quoted, unless you didn't understand the exchange or sought to misrepresent it.

Poster A: complains apropos of nothing about being falsely accused of antisemitism for criticising what's happening in Gaza. Uses the antisemitic trope of Jews "crying antisemitism" in order to shut down criticism/discussion to make their point.

Poster B: says (possibly for the hundredth time) that posters haven't been accused of antisemitism for criticising what's happening in Gaza, the issue is posters using the "crying antisemitism" trope.

Poster C: supported Poster B's point that Poster A used a trope which is prejudiced against Jewish people.

You didn't need to interject at all with a derail, especially as it seems you're largely indifferent to how various antisemitic tropes manifest on here so let's leave it there.

And yes I have read the doctors' letter- the level of suffering being inflicted upon innocent children and civilians is heartbreaking and unacceptable. I can't believe it's been nearly a year and there seems to be no end in sight to the horror, the region is in the grip of violent, warmongering madmen who don't give a shit about the immense human cost of their hatred and ambition.

Yes it is horrific what's happening in Sudan but you might want to start a separate thread so it doesn't get lost in this one if raising the profile of the issue is your aim. I am volunteering with a Sudanese community to fundraise for relief funds and highlight the humanitarian catastrophe you may find similar groups in your area to support.

Hamas have indeed caused the death of so many. Let's pray for the Palestine population decimated by Hammas.

5.4%. That's an estimated 1 in 20 people in Gaza.

1 in 20.

Think about that. Think about what that would look like in your community, your friends, your family. Then think about how almost everyone else is left injured, permanently disabled, ill and traumatised.

Then consider that these deaths, and the other suffering, are known about and accepted. Israeli forces and politicians know that they are causing these deaths and this suffering. People try to deflect that responsibility, but ultimately, the responsibility for how military, criminal justice and political systems around things like the nature of miitary responses, the availability of aid, the access of independent observers, the treatment of detainees, etc... that responsibility lies with the individuals and groups developing and implementing the protocols and the people putting them into action, whether that is pushing a button or pulling a trigger.

The responsibility also lies with the people and organisations supporting and facilitating those actions and choices, and with the people who shrug and turn away.

This letter is one of the closest things the world has to an independent assessment of what is happening in Gaza - what Israeli forces and organisations are doing to people in Gaza.

Everyone who is able to read it, should read it.

Poster A was spreading an anti-Semitic trope. So at that point, poster C wouldn't be entirely wrong in their accusation because the trope has been purposely used. If poster C had made an accusation without poster A having first used an anti-Semitic trope, that would obviously be an entirely different story. I didn't see poster C's comments so I can't comment on any specifics. I'm just responding to the general point your were apparently trying to make.

Poster A made a conscious decision to "rant" on this thread. That means that any perceived derailment is actually on them even if you'd all prefer to blame me for not just letting her have her little moment. Anti-Semitic tropes shouldn't be ignored. Just like Islamophobic ones shouldn't, and I've personally frequently spoken out against those as well and will continue to do so even if it's considered derailment by some.

As long as no one adds any further goady posts on this thread you'll be glad to know I really am out now. I only came back to this thread because I heard of the subsequent goadiness. So if you want to keep me from derailing aka speaking out against anti-Semitism you just need to cut out the passive aggressiveness and focus on the topic you actually wanted to discuss in the first place.

Have you read the letter, @Humdingerydoo ?

Well said @Scirocco
There is another thread, not in CIME, about the degree of reporting of the ME conflict on UK news. It was heartening to read how people did agree this news was important and very relevant to lives hear, not least due to what our UK government has been doing to support the conflict in arming Israel.
The majority of the UK want Israel to stop their military action and for the UK to even stop arming Israel. Only 13% said Israel should continue to take military action. The poll was in May- think about the lives that could have been saved and escalation that could have been avoided…

ygo-assets-websites-editorial-emea.yougov.net/documents/YouGov_-_Gaza_attitudes_May_2024.pdf

Thank you @Scirocco they are shocking statistics which will have a lifelong impact on the people of Gaza, once the troops are gone the processing and trauma will set in and unfortunately I don't hold out much hope that they'll get the support and help to try and rebuild both physically and psychologically

Not my argument , but it really is wrong to continue to pretend to think that anyone who is against the current right wing Israeli regime is antisemitic. They are not. Many Israelis are against them too. Is Jo. Biden also antisemtic?

Im willing to bet thar literally noone on these threads has ever said that anyone who is against the current regime is antisemitic.

I have no problem with people objecting to or reporting posts which contain prejudiced or offensive terms of any nature. Why would I?

And I really fail to see how asking you one question is goading. It's simply asking if you've read the linked letter since your previous post. Which isn't really an unreasonable question to ask someone on a thread specifically about the letter, which is one of the only independent reports coming out of Gaza due to the blocking of access to independent journalists and observers

Except that she had already explained, so to persist was goading. Cant you leave it at that? When someone identifies something offensive from other posters its hardly reasonable to then expect them to engage with the posters who A said the offensive thing or B turned a blind eye to that offensive thing. Thats human nature, surely?

Well, if people think it's goading to ask a question, once, then that rather removes the point of trying to have discussions. It would be respectful to the people of Palestine and to the brave healthcare professionals risking their own lives and careers by speaking about what they have seen, to have a discussion about what they have reported.

Independent reporters have been prevented from entering Gaza. All the reports from the official government organisations are discredited by media and individuals. People say "we can't trust the accounts" and "the figures are over-inflated" and "but people aren't independent". Here, we have people with relevant experience, independent, reporting first-hand accounts and analyses of what is happening. People now choose to ignore those reports, and the reasons are very clear.

(As an aside, unless you have access to a list of all posters' activities including posts reported and private messages, it's actually impossible to know whether anyone has turned a blind eye to anything. People may respond in different ways, people may have received feedback from others about how to respond. For example, if other posters tell someone their interventions are unwelcome, or if moderators feed back that posts are remaining because they've been challenged in a thread, someone might choose to report something or to message a person directly in private.)

Perhaps we could now return to discussing the topic of the thread. Namely, the first-hand accounts and analyses of the horrendous suffering being inflicted upon Gaza by Israel, and which many people and powers around the world seek to ignore.

@SharonEllis
I can understand why people think it is goading to say that criticism of IDF leads to cries of antisemitism.

However - the way that this forum has moved over time has shifted. You have to forgive people for not keeping track of what is now acceptable to say. Early on - after 7/10 - it was understandable that emotions were raw, and criticism of IDF’s action and suggestions that they were breaking international law WAS seen as antisemitism.

There was defence of Israel’s policies with regard to its water and food supply to Gaza. This has now been seen as suggestive of a war crime by an independent panel of lawyers.

We then- and still do- hear defence of Israel by saying people are displaying antisemitism by only focusing on Israel and not on other areas of atrocities in the world.

What is acceptable criticism of Israel has moved on- but arguably that’s because the majority of people have had their eyes opened to what is happening in Gaza and now Lebanon.

It wasnt one question was it, Im not going back over it but I think she was asked directly twice and there were also comments about people not reading the letter obviously aimed at her. The thread was derailed initially by someone else throwing in the antisemitism strawman. And now its you thats keeping it going when Humdingery has made it clear she wants out. You could drop it!

Hamas started this.

No. Lord Balfour started this. Offering to give away a country that did not belong to Britain.

And here we are. This is going to go on until the Palestinians get their rightfully owned lands back.

But there just isn't the political will amongst the countries that are powerful enough to make this happen.

So Israel continues to do what they have always done. Except this time it's far more brutal and deadly.

Pity the nation...

Please refer to my post above.

I would be interested in the thoughts of people who have supported Israel's actions and the support of these actions by the US and other countries, on how reading this letter feels. Does it change anything, to read the accounts of what is being done?

People who live in the countries facilitating this, our taxes are contributing to this as well. Our elected leaders are agreeing with this. Does that change anything in how people feel? What people think?

It's a tragedy. But it's a tragedy that could have been avoided by Hamas:

• not stating its intent is to destroy israel and the Jews
• not using billions of aid money to build terror tunnels under their people
• not embezzling billions of aid money into their leaders' bank accounts
• not using civilians as human shields
• not stealing aid and selling it on the black market
• not paying people to reward them for the death of Jews
• not undertaking a terrorist attack on 7 Oct
• not taking hostages
• not releasing the hostages
• not preventing civilians from moving away from bombs aimed at destroying the terror tunnels under buildings and infrastructure.

Israel now has the unenviable and much misunderstood task of creating security for its people. It is doing the dirty work of the West to ensure terrorists aren't in a position to repeat further atrocities. That is why western powers say one thing to their populace and actually are supportive of Israel's actions.

Israel is the only country that while fighting provides aid to its enemy, tells civilians to move from targeted areas, etc. War is a terrible thing. Many innocents suffer. There will be suffering now to prevent deeper suffering later.

Many people, including those doctors, are looking at the here and now. Suffering now. Stop the war now. And I sympathise with and appreciate the immediate view. But governments shouldn't just act for the here and now. They have to look to the future and I believe the Israeli government thinks stopping now will cause greater suffering later. What a horrible decision to make.

I think in a similar vein, the Israeli government is also trying to tread the line between having hostages released and considering the greater good of all 8+ million Israeli's security.