To understand the escalation in Lebanon, we must confront what Israelis are thinking

[Gunnersforthecup]

Rather good and well-informed article in the Guardian

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/sep/28/escalation-lebanon-israelis-benjamin-netanyahu-hamas-hezbollah

"It is almost certainly true that the prime minister, Benjamin Netanyahu, has political reasons for prolonging the conflict. But while a majority of Israelis would probably like a different prime minister, many don’t want to stop the war until they think that both Hamas and more particularly Hezbollah – which has tied its actions directly to Gaza – have been neutralised as serious threats.

And that is because behind both groups they see an Iran that is dedicated to their destruction...

This isn’t simply about the US and its western allies. This time the Gulf states – and most of all Saudi Arabia – are going to be key actors. The prize of normalisation with Israel has not disappeared. But the price has gone up. It will certainly include the effective containment of Iran and its allies – and an answer to real, not simply declarative, Palestinian statehood. And this time we need to make it stick. Otherwise the pain we are seeing now will not simply not go away. It will get a lot worse."

I questioned it, was provided evidence and accepted it and then self-corrected for the rest of the thread and every subsequent thread including this one.

Pointing out a prior error on another thread that has long since been corrected is against the talk guideline where we are not supposed to talk about another thread.

"I am perfectly ok with Israel defending itself, where we differ is in agreeing what should or should not be done in the process of defending yourself against terrorism."

Well I'm sure Israel will be pleased that you are happy with them defending themselves. 😀

The second bit. You have no idea what I think, should, or should not be done in the process of defending against terrorism. You might guess of course, however, don't presume.

I don't think you have even elaborated about what YOU feel should be done against terrorists? Just a range of comments that dont appear to link together. Go on then tell us how you'd sort it out.

Except from when you doubled down after being told multiple times that they are in fact legally terrorists but whatever. Let's just pretend you didn't say the illegal things, mumsnet refuse to delete it so anyone can go back and check.

I don't think there is anything in the talk guidelines about not being allowed to mention another thread. I know people mention it a lot, but I really can't see it anywhere in the guidelines.

Happy to be corrected though.

Isreal is bombing the shit out of weaker nations with huge infrastructural damage and death to innocent civilians.

Because they have the right to defend themselves against existential threat.

A terrorist attack is not an existential threat.

Can you imagine the outcome if the UK had tried to eradicate the IRA by levelling Northern Ireland killing or displacing all inhabitants?

There is no existential threat.

They are overreacting. An excuse to grab land. And kill those already living there or drive them out.

This is not how peace is achieved. All out victory and winning is not the same thing. And does not last.

It seems that the journey from victim to aggressor is very short.

I 100% understand what the Israelis are thinking, I completely agree with them. Terrorist organisations cannot be allowed to commit atrocities and get away with it.

Care to explain that last sentence?

Why did Israel invade Lebanon? Cooooould it be the PLO who had just arrived from Jordan after being kicked out for trying to assassinate the king started lobbing missiles against Israel?

Hezbollah has been trying to convince Lebanese that they are the only thing stopping Israel from invading for years. When in fact they are the only reason Israel views Lebanon as hostile.

I really hope for Lebanons sake that the destruction of Hezbollah allows them to become a functioning state in charge of it’s own security and not basically run by a drug dealing mafia. (They apparently do a good trade in captagon).

www.arabnews.com/node/2167776

@blackcherryconserve Russia is very supportive of Iran so we can extrapolate that they support Iran's support of their terrorist proxies. Nicely distracting the world from Ukraine.

Bellingcat have been tracking some Russian grain ships out of occupied Ukraine delivering to Iranian ports, it's interesting reading.

Can you imagine the outcome if the UK had tried to eradicate the IRA by levelling Northern Ireland killing or displacing all inhabitants?

They may well have done so had the IRA murdered over 10,000 civilians in a single attack, on a single day.

You have no understanding of history, and none whatsoever of the current middle east if you think there is no existential threat. Iran, Hamas, Hezbollah & other Islamist militants are clear about their intentions to Israel and to Jewish people.

Hamasade it clear they would repeat October 7th again and again.

It seems that the journey from victim to aggressor is very short.

What does this mean?

They have killed the leader of Hezbollah and many senior figures, so why are they still bombing? Knowing that many innocent civilians are dying. Netanyahu never makes measured moves, always the extreme in everything

Beacause there are still rocket launchers and other military infrastructure.

Israel is not bombing the shit out of weaker nations. It isn't taking on Lebanon but targeting hezbollah. Many countries had the now deceased leader on a wanted list. He was a vile man. Maybe if he didn't instruct his terrorist organisation to fire rockets into Israel, he'd still be alive. Poor Lebanese with that thing having so much power.

Israel are also taking on hamas. A good for nothing terrorist organisation who not only brought terror to Israel but squander raised taxes in gaza on terrorist leaders own ends. Another good for nothing bunch of vile creatures. Sinwar, another creature who does nothing for his people.

The people of both Gaza and Lebanon deserve better.

I see you haven't replied to various others about your last sentence, I wonder why that might be.

“"I am perfectly ok with Israel defending itself, where we differ is in agreeing what should or should not be done in the process of defending yourself against terrorism."- me, earlier

YoYoYoYo12345 · Today 18:22
You have no idea what I think, should, or should not be done in the process of defending against terrorism. You might guess of course, however, don't presume.

I am guessing you meant this though?
YoYoYoYo12345 · Today 14:17
The more targeted attacks against Hezbollah are the way forward.

The one ‘targeted’ attack that killed Nasrallah involved dropping eighty-five 5,000lb ‘bunker buster’ bombs which contain 187,000lbs of explosives on an area the size of a single city block within a few seconds of each other. Each of these 85 bombs had a kill radius of 33 metres (108 feet). That means everyone within that 33-metre radius is going to die – and Israel just dropped 85 of these bombs on residential tower blocks in the capital city of Lebanon.

I don’t agree more attacks like this are the way forward, you said you do.

So what? Israel has plenty of military infrastructure. It wouldn't justify a stronger nation bombing them at the expense of the deaths of huge amount of civilians. We would condem that so how can people be ok with this??
I was watching the news and it was showing footage of Lebanon. I can't believe there are people who continue to support this!

Sorry, who has murdered over 10,000 civilians in a single attack, in a single day?

of course it would if Israel had been attacking that nation's civilians completely unprovoked for nearly 12 months. Hezbollah have been firing rockets at Israel since 8 October. These attacks by Hezbollah's own admission have been in solidarity with Hamas and therefore an act of aggression on their part - they have been attacking civilian areas in Israel. over 60,00 Israelis have had to evacuate and 12 children and young people were killed in an attack.

That was to @Frontofgarden do'nt know why the quote didn't work.

There's a really warped sense of what is deemed ok on some of these mumsnet threads. I don't think many in real life would think what Israel is doing, is even remotely ok. It's nuts on here!

@PocketSand ,

‘Can you imagine the outcome if the UK had tried to eradicate the IRA by levelling Northern Ireland killing or displacing all inhabitants?

There is no existential threat.

They are overreacting. An excuse to grab land. And kill those already living there or drive them out.’

Is your memory so short that you don’t remember 9/11 and its aftermath?

The U.S lost 5,000 people in a nation of 300 million, a far smaller proportion than what happened to Israel and the U.S and its allies invaded and tried to occupy two whole countries in return.

No nation will tolerated being attacked by organised terrors groups who can then seek asylum in a friendly 3rd nation.

I, and I think several others who defend Israel’s right to defend itself, think Israel have been incredibly heavy handed in Gaza, and I deplore the way Israel has treated its POWs and the way they are acting in the occupied territories. In addition, Netanyahu’s unholy coalition with the racist religious right needs to end soon.

But Hezbollah (and Iran) are another matter. How can anyone think that Israel should just sit idly by while a terrorist group who want to kill all Jews (not just Israelis) and continue to lob deadly munitions over the border on a daily basis, making part of Israel uninhabitable?!

(Although, judging by the BBC’s reporting, especially one particular woman from Lebanon, you would think that a heroic leader had just been assassinated, not an evil terrorist-maybe the BBC’s weasel words should be the subject of another thread, but I can’t help but think they shape people’s views).

I don't know where you are but lets just say in the UK. If France had been lobbing rockets over to various places in the UK for over 11 months would you expect the UK government to just sit there, taking out those rockets with defensive systems forever and just shrug if the odd rocket got through. Or would you expect your government to do something about French aggression?

Has it been completely unprovoked? When the data shows both started attacking on 8th October, and Israel has done 5x the attacks of Hezbollah?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cv2gj544x65o

From the BBC:
“Data gathered by the US-based Armed Conflict Location and Event Data Project (Acled) and analysed by the BBC suggest both sides together carried out a combined 7,491 cross-border attacks between 8 October 2023 and 5 July 2024. These figures indicated that Israel has carried out around five times as many as Hezbollah.
The UN says the attacks have forced more than 90,000 people in Lebanon from their homes, with around 100 civilians and 366 Hezbollah fighters killed in Israeli strikes.
In Israel, officials say 60,000 civilians have had to abandon their homes and 33 people have been killed, including 10 civilians, because of attacks by Hezbollah.”

Fordian:In my opinion, if a Palestinian state were created, within a week it'd be firing Iranian supplied missiles into Israel.

Okay, then Israel could set about wiping out that new state with a clear conscience but there would be a lot of collateral damage.

The people who need containing are the Islamists of Iran.

@ToBeDetermined: 'Please don’t prejudge a Palestinian state.'

Unfortunately the evidence over many decades points to this likelihood. I can recall my dad, 1973/4, PLO? Arafat? - lamenting how the Palestinians manage to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory, over and over again.

I'm referring to the initial attack by Hezbollah in solidarity with Hamas.