To understand the escalation in Lebanon, we must confront what Israelis are thinking

[Gunnersforthecup]

Rather good and well-informed article in the Guardian

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/sep/28/escalation-lebanon-israelis-benjamin-netanyahu-hamas-hezbollah

"It is almost certainly true that the prime minister, Benjamin Netanyahu, has political reasons for prolonging the conflict. But while a majority of Israelis would probably like a different prime minister, many don’t want to stop the war until they think that both Hamas and more particularly Hezbollah – which has tied its actions directly to Gaza – have been neutralised as serious threats.

And that is because behind both groups they see an Iran that is dedicated to their destruction...

This isn’t simply about the US and its western allies. This time the Gulf states – and most of all Saudi Arabia – are going to be key actors. The prize of normalisation with Israel has not disappeared. But the price has gone up. It will certainly include the effective containment of Iran and its allies – and an answer to real, not simply declarative, Palestinian statehood. And this time we need to make it stick. Otherwise the pain we are seeing now will not simply not go away. It will get a lot worse."

This.

Don't we all have bunkers under our houses and hold meetings there of Hezbollah leadership?

I'm sure. There are also some individuals out there who believe the IDF is the most moral army in the world and think they aren't committing war crimes. It takes all sorts.

So in the absence of an ideal response, it is OK to allow Israel to continue this madness?

The solution for this conflict will not be found on mumsnet. The fact that nobody has the ideal response is not justification for killing innocent people.

You need to confront Iran first and stop them attacking Israel through proxies

There is never going to be an ideal response. This is the problem - people expect Israel to operate at an impossibly high standard while dealing with enemies who have no morality or decency whatsoever. If Oct 7 (& Hezbollah support for tha action) didnt convince you of that nothing will.

Gideon Levy sums it up well:

www.instagram.com/reel/DAd9aNJirOk/?igsh=YnQ0ampjZnIxZmJ6

So if I'm following your logic correctly. If Israel find evidence of Hezbollah anywhere, they are free to annihilate that target and obliterate anyone else there in the process because it's the fault of Hezbollah for being around people?

I think you'll find the world DOES confront Iran though. Iran is not considered to be a western country, one which we fund, or travel to or have many trade deals with. The world holds Iran to account all the time OFFICIALLY.

In light of recent events, with Israel acting like a rogue state, I think we need to start treating Israel like we treat Iran.

We looked the other way with Israel for long enough when it cones to Palestine. Expecting Israel not to massacre tens of thousands of innocent women and children is not an impeccable standard surely

Probably by working out what could possibly have enabled Hamas to have formed in the first place? Why they went from a group of activists establishing charities, clinics & schools in the Gaza Strip and West Bank, after Israel occupied both in 1967, to officially being formed by Sheik Ahmad Yassin in 1987.

Then look at the conditions that allowed Hamas to enter politics in 2005 and take control from Fatah, who favoured negotiation over armed resistance.

Then look at the West Bank, where Fatah remained in control but are rapidly losing ground to Hamas and think, what could possibly be causing people to support armed resistance?

Then think about what it really means, when we say Hamas are embedded in the community. You're talking about the military arm, but mostly it's those same sort of activists from the 70s responding to the crisis in education, health, social care etc.

Them you might conclude that Netanyahu, a corrupt religious zealot, will do everything he can to both remain in power and wipe out what he believes are an inferior people, or as he quoted "blot out the memory of Amalek from under heaven.”

The world does not confront Iran. It leaves Israel to do that. Israel is a democratic state that is fighting for its very existence. Iran uses and supplies its proxies Hamas, Hizbollah and Houtis to fire rockets into Israel at will. If it wasn't for Israel protecting its citizens with the Iron Dome defence system there would be thousands more casualties. The money that the terrorists have been given over many years has never been used to protect any Palestinian, whether in Gaza or Lebanon. The money is spent on arms and building of underground bases from which to attack Israel.

Disagree.

A lot of the sanctions and punishments have been for their nuclear program. However, the West have buried their heads in the sand on Iran continuously over the past 6-7 years onwards.

Funnily enough, Trump was the only one with the bravado to hold Iran accountable for their actions when he gave the go ahead for the take out on Soleimani.

Iran was never truly held accountable or dealt with after the Aramco Oil attacks.

They've not been held to account on the state of Yemen and their proxy war with Saudi Arabia via the Houthis.
They've not been held to account for the state of flux remaining in Syria.
They've not been held to account to the state Iraq is in. (4-5 years after the caliphate of Daesh crumbled and they switched into an insurgancy). 5 different proxy groups with approx 160,000 fighters (compare that to the British military size) all based in Iraq with the sole purpose of destabilising the region and targeting coalition forces and/or Israel.
Other than Israel, they haven't been held to account for their proxy aims in both Lebanon with Hezbolah and Palestine/Gaza with Hamas and Palastinian Islamic Jihad.

So your saying lots do support hamas
Others say that it's only Hamas and not ordinary people. You say opposite. Difficult for people to tell then, is that what you meant?

I'm interested in what you would propose doing to hold Iran to account?

I'm seeing "the IDF is embedded in civilian communities" everywhere. Sorry, but we're talking about entirely different things. Hamas and Hezbollah leaders have their "bases" literally underneath civilian residential buildings, meet in UN schools, etc. Hamas and Hezbollah won't argue that Mohammed Deif was assassinated whist in the humanitarian area; Nasrallah was holding a meeting with 20 other Hezbollah leaders directly under a civilian residential block, etc. By contrast, Israeli soldiers serve on bases which don't also have civilians living in them. Military bunkers are not under blocks of flats in Tel Aviv.

And yes, hundreds of Oct 7 victims were IDF - because the terrorists overran military bases (eg Re'im) and killed them (or they were killed in battle) - not because they were hiding in civilian communities. Serving soldiers also wear uniforms that distinguish them from civilians - which Hamas also does not do, further endangering civilians.

@ToBeDetermined ,

‘The IDF is also embedded deeply in the civilian communities of Israel with mandatory conscription of all young adult men and women, plus mandatory reservist status until mid40s. Hundreds of the Oct 7th victims were IDF.’

No, not at all!

That is like saying the UK TA is embedded in civilian communities. When they are not called up, they are not fighting. If called up, they don uniform and report to camp.

@Golden407 ,

There are several ways to hold a nation like Iran to account.

The first is massive sanctions, which Trump was doing and were working, but then Biden inextricably lifted for some reasons.

The second way is to militarily take out their nukes, before it is too late.

The third is forced regime change, but that hasn’t proved too successful to date.

So a combination of the first and second is probably best and then hoping that the theocratic misogynistic regime implodes by itself.

Are you thinking of the unfreezing of funds or something else for first

And do you think second would spark some serious retaliation from their allies?

I’m with you on the last line

@EasternStandard ,

I am sure Israel will do something significant to their nuclear program now, either attacking the facilities themselves or, if that risks regional nuclear fallout, the infrastructure around the nukes, the railheads, factories of parts, personnel (which is harsh, as most don’t really want to be there) but effective.

I am not sure what allies? There are the non state entities who are talked up but ultimately pretty powerless except in asymmetric warfare. And Iran may like to think other Islamic countries are their allies but, when push comes to shove, I don’t think they have any interest in fighting for the mad mullahs.

Proper sanctions including sea blockades, so they can’t get the oil out, and full freezing of the banking system (like what we have done to Russia) would, I suspect, foment revolution quite quickly, I don’t believe it is either a popular or cohesive regime.

@Newbutoldfather I hesitated on word allies as it didn’t quite fit

There was just a bit on world service about possibly targeting nuclear as you posted, rather annoyingly the radio got cut off at what the US thought about that

I’ll have to wait for it to circle back round

Should do all of this immediately

Would Russia or China do much?

Coming back to this as Iran nuclear ability is finally being picked up more in the press

Ultimately imo the indulgence in the West for anti Israel rhetoric for the last year or so has made us less safe

Including SM and on the street

@EasternStandard ,

We must never allow Iran to become a nuclear nation.

Once they get nukes. I am not sure what would stop them eliminating Israel altogether. If you look at the area Israel occupies, a couple of nukes would make it uninhabitable.

And, given Iran’s theocratic and old rulers, they may well all think that heaven (and lots of virgins) await when they are, in turn, wiped out.