To understand the escalation in Lebanon, we must confront what Israelis are thinking

[Gunnersforthecup]

Rather good and well-informed article in the Guardian

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/sep/28/escalation-lebanon-israelis-benjamin-netanyahu-hamas-hezbollah

"It is almost certainly true that the prime minister, Benjamin Netanyahu, has political reasons for prolonging the conflict. But while a majority of Israelis would probably like a different prime minister, many don’t want to stop the war until they think that both Hamas and more particularly Hezbollah – which has tied its actions directly to Gaza – have been neutralised as serious threats.

And that is because behind both groups they see an Iran that is dedicated to their destruction...

This isn’t simply about the US and its western allies. This time the Gulf states – and most of all Saudi Arabia – are going to be key actors. The prize of normalisation with Israel has not disappeared. But the price has gone up. It will certainly include the effective containment of Iran and its allies – and an answer to real, not simply declarative, Palestinian statehood. And this time we need to make it stick. Otherwise the pain we are seeing now will not simply not go away. It will get a lot worse."

I completely understand why Israelis would want Hezbollah and Hamas neutralised. I am not sure many rational thinking people wouldn't. They are evil barbaric unpredictable terrorist organisations that have no place in a modern progressive world. What I can't understand or accept is the complete disregard for innocent human lives in achieving that aim. All innocent lives matter and need to be protected

So how do you achieve the neutralisation of Hamas and Hezbollah given that they are embedded deeply in the civilian communities of Gaza and Lebanon, without any risk of collateral damage to civilians and children? How?

I personally think a ceasefire with the establishment of a Palestinian state with full control over its borders, trade and so on and containment of Israeli aggression would “neutralise” Hamas and Hezbollah.

They draw their recruits from the angry survivors of Israeli indiscriminate bombings and detentions of civilians.

The IDF is also embedded deeply in the civilian communities of Israel with mandatory conscription of all young adult men and women, plus mandatory reservist status until mid40s. Hundreds of the Oct 7th victims were IDF.

By sticking within international humanitarian laws by ensuring civilians are safeguarded, have access to food, water, sanitation, shelter, medical care. As I said all civilian lives matter and need to be protected and that is not the case in Gaza and hopefully won't become the case in Lebanon.

You don't, same as when the British bombarded Dresden in WW2. If it wasn't for Israel's Iron Dome defence system there would be thousands more civilian deaths. Israel protects its citizens wherever possible (with the possible exception of 7 October) but Hamas and Hezbollah build their tunnels where they store rockets and armoury under homes, schools etc knowing full well that civilian deaths will take place as a result.

That will not happen while Hamas' goal is the elimination of the Jewish state.

In my opinion, if a Palestinian state were created, within a week it'd be firing Iranian supplied missiles into Israel.

Okay, then Israel could set about wiping out that new state with a clear conscience but there would be a lot of collateral damage.

The people who need containing are the Islamists of Iran.

You will be no doubt thrilled to be informed that they abandoned this goal twenty years ago.

I wonder iyou have listened to anything Hamas have said over the years? This is not just a dispute over land. Their problem is with Jewish people who they intend to destroy. Perhaps you might watch the documentary on the 7 October atrocity?
Embedding means physically putting military installations in civilian infrastructure which is against the rules of war. It does not relate to conscripting civilians for military service which is a normal response when a state faces an existential threat .

Please don’t prejudge a Palestinian state.

Wow.
This is why I can't read these Israel propaganda threads.
Less than ten posts in we have the deliberate targeting of Palestinian schools, hospitals and the total flattening of streets waved away as "collateral damage"
The ignorance is off the scale.

Thousands of Palestinians being purposefully starved to death by blocking food is not "collateral damage" nor is blocking anesthetics in Palestinian hospitals.

Their actions say different.

It is a dispute over land. Their problem is with the lands that have been and are being stolen. Embedding means more than military using civilian infrastructure- a crime both sides are guilty of btw, as the poster meant it in the larger context of “embedded deeply in the civilian communities” which would include the fact that all civilians have military training and service and the fact that the Israeli government has armed violent civilian settler groups and uses the IDF to protect and assist them in terrorising civilian Palestinians in their homes.

Their actions belie your statement. That have stated also that they will continue with more October 7ths.

And what do the actions of Israel say then?

Yea, more attacks until there is a Palestinian state with 1967 borders is what they said.

I wonder why you stopped listening to them in 1988.

That they are defending all Israelis which is what all countries do for their citizens. Note that terrorists like Hamas and Hezbollah couldn't give a fxxk about ordinary citizens in Gaza or Lebanon.

“While initially seeking a state in all of Mandatory Palestine that would replace Israel, Hamas began acquiescing to 1967 borders in the agreements it signed with Fatah in 2005, 2006 and 2007.[73][74][75]“

Very strange way to defend your populace by killing tens of thousands of innocent civilians that your enemy doesn’t care about.

In May 2017 Palestinian political and military organization Hamas unveiled A Document of General Principles and Policies (وثيقة المبادئ والسياسات العامة لحركة حماس), also referred to as the new or revised Hamas charter. It accepted the idea of a Palestinian state within the 1967 borders, i.e. comprising the West Bank and Gaza strip only,[3] on the condition that also the Palestinian refugees were allowed to return to their homes,[4] if it is clear this is the consensus of the Palestinians[5] ("a formula of national consensus"[6]); but at the same time this document strove for the "complete liberation of Palestine, from the river to the sea",[2][6] and did not explicitly recognize Israel.[3] The new charter holds that armed resistance against an occupying power is justified under international law.[1][7]

The 'complete liberation of Palestine' equals the elimination of Israel as a Jewish state.
What else do you think 'From the River (Jordan) to the (Mediterranean) Sea' chant means? (Rhetorical question)

@ToBeDetermined

www.middleeasteye.net/news/hamas-2017-document-full

"Palestine, which extends from the River Jordan in the east to the Mediterranean in the west and from Ras al-Naqurah in the north to Umm al-Rashrash in the south, is an integral territorial unit. It is the land and the home of the Palestinian people. The expulsion and banishment of the Palestinian people from their land and the establishment of the Zionist entity therein do not annul the right of the Palestinian people to their entire land and do not entrench any rights therein for the usurping Zionist entity."

"Hamas believes that no part of the land of Palestine shall be compromised or conceded, irrespective of the causes, the circumstances and the pressures and no matter how long the occupation lasts. Hamas rejects any alternative to the full and complete liberation of Palestine, from the river to the sea. However, without compromising its rejection of the Zionist entity and without relinquishing any Palestinian rights, Hamas considers the establishment of a fully sovereign and independent Palestinian state, with Jerusalem as its capital along the lines of the 4th of June 1967, with the return of the refugees and the displaced to their homes from which they were expelled, to be a formula of national consensus."

"There shall be no recognition of the legitimacy of the Zionist entity"

"Hamas stresses that transgression against the Palestinian people, usurping their land and banishing them from their homeland cannot be called peace. Any settlements reached on this basis will not lead to peace. Resistance and jihad for the liberation of Palestine will remain a legitimate right, a duty and an honour for all the sons and daughters of our people and our Ummah."

Etc etc etc

It doesn't sound like they're recognising Israel though, does it? Even their newest charter says Israel is Palestine 🤦🏻‍♀️ They reserve the right for "resistance and jihad". Let's not pretend it's a peaceful two state solution they're after.

It's not the innocent civilians they're aiming to kill though, is it? It's terrorists.

Who do they think they're likely to kill when they bomb refugee camps housing thousands of people in tents?

None of that is a strategy to neutralise Hamas or Hezbollah.