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Conflict in the Middle East
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35
EasterIssland · 20/05/2024 22:50

statsfun · 20/05/2024 22:37

Why do you suggest it's blackmail? Do you have any indication that threats have been made?

Why do you suggest it's bribery? Do you have any evidence that incentives have been illegally offered?

You do know how the lobby system works in the US don't you?

From Wikipedia, for your convenience:
"Lobbying in the United States describes paid activity in which special interest groups hire well-connected professional advocates, often lawyers, to argue for specific legislation in decision-making bodies such as the United States Congress."

I'm going to assume you're just ill-informed rather than making sensationalist claims in a deliberate effort to spread fear and misinformation.

Can I not agree with system where a country gets affected by the decisions made by icc about other countries ?

we have already seen threats done by congress politicians (I believe) against those making decisions in icc in the last few days. This shouldn’t firstly have happened and secondly be allowed

AdamRyan · 20/05/2024 22:56

Polka83 · 20/05/2024 21:26

This article is 100% on the ball.

It will be interesting how US responds, not least because it holds a mirror to the West.

A fall guy for what has happened in Gaza could be helpful - paradoxically it may help Israel’s standing internationally if the war crimes could be placed on the shoulders of an extreme leadership.

I have read Jewish citizens berate what the IDF are doing on this board - as they remain steadfast in support of Israel as a country. @keenforhelp ‘s views are not universal, and appear increasingly to be in the minority now on this board across a breadth of posters.

I understand Netanyahu’s facing charges for fraud? He’s going to face the legal system in one way or another, and his career as a politician seems over.

Will also be interesting what this means for Israeli internal politics. How does a democracy face this?

Yes quite. I was thinking about how long it took to bring Milosovic to trial after the Serbian war.
I too think it would benefit Israel if the blame was (rightly imo) pinned on that extremist bunch of nutters in charge. This can sometimes happen in a democracy, especially if the leader lies and uses propaganda to get their way.
I hope they do arrest him and I really hope the US withdraws their support for Netanyahu's government. I don't know enough about the Israeli system to know how easy it is for the current government to be got rid of democratically but it needs to happen.

EasterIssland · 20/05/2024 22:56

Spain

Israel Gaza war: ICC prosecutor seeks arrest warrants for Netanyahu and Hamas leaders
EasterIssland · 20/05/2024 22:57

Polka83 · 20/05/2024 22:36

Here’s a link to report by expert panel of lawyers advising the ICC the prosecutor. Looks like Amal Clooney has chosen her time to speak out, alongside other eminent lawyers.

https://www.icc-cpi.int/sites/default/files/2024-05/240520-panel-report-eng.pdf

She’s received a lot of backlash in these 7 months for being quiet regarding what was happening in her country in social media. I’m glad she was quiet if this has allowed her to focus on what really mattered

Polka83 · 20/05/2024 23:13

EasterIssland · 20/05/2024 22:57

She’s received a lot of backlash in these 7 months for being quiet regarding what was happening in her country in social media. I’m glad she was quiet if this has allowed her to focus on what really mattered

There appears to be a lot of emphasis in use of starvation and impeding access to and other necessary items eg medicines.

This seems irrefutable and easier to prove than other types of war crimes eg disproportionate killing and even genocide. May also make it more palatable to the west who have been arming the IDF and yet still calling out need for aid to get in.

Must be difficult to speak out as a lawyer when you are so famous unless you can back your words with evidence.

She could have spoken out earlier -
but taking her time gives more emphasis to her conclusion -(alongside the other authors).

Efacsen · 20/05/2024 23:47

And France too

France says supports ICC mandate and the ‘fight against impunity

’France says it has long warned of the consequences of violating international humanitarian law, particularly in regards to the “unacceptable” number of civilians killed in Gaza, as well as “insufficient humanitarian access”.

TheFirmBiscuit · 21/05/2024 06:24

When he received threats not to go after Israel, Karim Khan
reveals "a senior leader" told him the ICC "is built for Africa and for thugs like Putin", and not for the West and its allies. Interesting as Putin has been actually indicted by the Court and is ubject to an arrest warrant.

Amal Clooney was part of the panel preparing the indictments.

https://cfj.org/news/amal-clooney-publishes-expert-report-supporting-icc-arrest-warrant-applications-for-crimes-in-israel-and-palestine/

https://twitter.com/RnaudBertrand/status/1792748783996207206

x.com

https://twitter.com/RnaudBertrand/status/1792748783996207206

Auvergne63 · 21/05/2024 08:41

Efacsen · 20/05/2024 23:47

And France too

France says supports ICC mandate and the ‘fight against impunity

’France says it has long warned of the consequences of violating international humanitarian law, particularly in regards to the “unacceptable” number of civilians killed in Gaza, as well as “insufficient humanitarian access”.

I am French and I am beyond happy by this. Thanks for posting.

SummerFeverVenice · 21/05/2024 08:49

statsfun · 20/05/2024 21:21

Are you genuinely trying to suggest that Hamas weren't trying to kill Jews on October 7th? That it was just an unfortunate accident of population demographics??

And you're also trying to suggest that Hamas aren't Islamist?

Are you for real???

They were massacring anyone they found in Israel. Their objective was to kill or capture as many in Israel as they could, not even foreign migrant workers were spared. They didn’t surround and divide Jewish from others, they just killed everyone they could.

Hamas is Islamist, but they do have Christian members. Palestinians in Gaza are Muslim and Christian. The #1 reason for Christians converting to Islam over the decades has been to marry each other, which is why the % Christians has been dropping.

Chickenuggetsticks · 21/05/2024 08:49

I think it’s pointless political theatre tbh.

But on the other hand the actions of Hamas and the Israeli government should come under scrutiny.

SummerFeverVenice · 21/05/2024 08:54

Kendodd · 20/05/2024 22:07

Question for any legal brains. If Netanyahu is now wanted for war crimes, where does that leave the UK regarding any weapons we have supplied to him to carry out these actions?

He isn’t yet. The prosecutor will submit a request for arrest warrants to a 3 judge panel, the panel takes 2-3 months to deliberate before deciding whether to issue any warrants and if so, for whom and for which war crimes.

That is a lot of time for the US & Israel to pressure the ICC to make certain arrest warrants never happen. They can do this by filing their own legal motions. The Hamas arrest warrants will fly through imho, and be approved.

Even if arrest warrants are issued, the US and Israel will likely ignore them, just like Putin did. If you or your biggest ally are permanent members of the UN (as Russia and the US are) then full impunity and immunity from international law seems to be the geopolitical reality.

SummerFeverVenice · 21/05/2024 08:56

EasterIssland · 20/05/2024 22:25

Foreign Israel minister meets with AIPAC leaders asking them to work with the administration and congress against ICCs decision
isn’t this blackmail / bribery?

Edited

It’s not blackmail or bribery but it is illegal lobbying by a foreign agent.
Paid lobbying for special interests is legal in the US, unless you are a foreign agent or representing a foreign agent.

(agent here is the legal term, not the 007 special agent term- two different definitions)

EasterIssland · 21/05/2024 09:03

SummerFeverVenice · 21/05/2024 08:56

It’s not blackmail or bribery but it is illegal lobbying by a foreign agent.
Paid lobbying for special interests is legal in the US, unless you are a foreign agent or representing a foreign agent.

(agent here is the legal term, not the 007 special agent term- two different definitions)

I should have worded / explained why before.

last week or week before I think there were several congressmen threatening icc. The fact that now Israel’s foreign ministers is meeting with aipac in order to work against icc decision with congress it adds to my thoughts of this is blackmailing for icc not to do their work.

TheFirmBiscuit · 21/05/2024 09:05

Wow this guy is not messing around. A deputy managing partner at Bindmans LLP as well which is one of the cities top international law firms. The Judgement gives powerful tools to campaigners to use against British MPs and firms who are deemed to be complicit. I expect this will be replicated internationally as well.

https://twitter.com/tayab_ali_/status/1792636900068475016

x.com

https://twitter.com/tayab_ali_/status/1792636900068475016

SummerFeverVenice · 21/05/2024 09:07

Keep in mind it is election year in the US. By the time arrest warrants are issued, Biden could be months away from being out of office. If Trump wins, no way will he respect an ICC arrest warrant. He will probably have a bromance and bond with Nethanyu about how he too was unjustly dragged through the courts.

SummerFeverVenice · 21/05/2024 09:08

EasterIssland · 21/05/2024 09:03

I should have worded / explained why before.

last week or week before I think there were several congressmen threatening icc. The fact that now Israel’s foreign ministers is meeting with aipac in order to work against icc decision with congress it adds to my thoughts of this is blackmailing for icc not to do their work.

It would be done as lawfare- abusing the law to legitimise your war and define genocide as tragic collateral damage.

All the permanent UN members are masters of this.

EasternStandard · 21/05/2024 09:10

statsfun · 20/05/2024 21:21

Are you genuinely trying to suggest that Hamas weren't trying to kill Jews on October 7th? That it was just an unfortunate accident of population demographics??

And you're also trying to suggest that Hamas aren't Islamist?

Are you for real???

I’m glad you responded to that post @statsfun

SummerFeverVenice · 21/05/2024 09:14

Chickenuggetsticks · 21/05/2024 08:49

I think it’s pointless political theatre tbh.

But on the other hand the actions of Hamas and the Israeli government should come under scrutiny.

I am similar, I think it a sort of futile virtue signalling. The ICC has no way to enforce the law or arrest criminals- they depend on the UN Security Council to do it.

The Serbian genocide is a good case example of how our international system isn’t designed to prevent or stop war crimes. It is only designed to maybe bring a few of the wrong ethnicity/nationality war criminals to trial long after the innocent dead are bones in a field.

Its better than nothing, but it needs to be reformed to have more power.

Kendodd · 21/05/2024 09:26

SummerFeverVenice · 21/05/2024 08:54

He isn’t yet. The prosecutor will submit a request for arrest warrants to a 3 judge panel, the panel takes 2-3 months to deliberate before deciding whether to issue any warrants and if so, for whom and for which war crimes.

That is a lot of time for the US & Israel to pressure the ICC to make certain arrest warrants never happen. They can do this by filing their own legal motions. The Hamas arrest warrants will fly through imho, and be approved.

Even if arrest warrants are issued, the US and Israel will likely ignore them, just like Putin did. If you or your biggest ally are permanent members of the UN (as Russia and the US are) then full impunity and immunity from international law seems to be the geopolitical reality.

Thanks for explaining better.

If the US isn't a member of the ICC how/where do they bring legal challenges to their rulings?

PeasfullPerson · 21/05/2024 09:36

I am very annoyed and not in the slightest bit surprised, that Netanyahu is trying to say that the reason he is on the list of warrants being sought is down to antisemitism.

No Netanyahu, you are on the list because you have broken the law. A ‘just war’ does not involve the displacement of the majority of a population and the destruction of their homeland, a just war does not indiscriminately kill and maim over thirty thousand people while denying them access to proper sanitation, health services and nutrition.

A just response would minimise the threat instead of increasing it, and adding to a sequence of events that have spread hatred and prejudice throughout the world.

As for the line that this shouldn’t happen because it equates him with Hamas and it is a moral outrage… I think the intelligence of the public has been underestimated. Has anyone ever successfully managed to avoid being charged for something, because somebody they deem to be worse is also being charged for something else? I don’t think that’s how the law works.

PeasfullPerson · 21/05/2024 09:37

I haven’t seen a response from any of the leaders of Hamas, so can’t comment on that.

Dulra · 21/05/2024 09:41

SummerFeverVenice · 21/05/2024 09:14

I am similar, I think it a sort of futile virtue signalling. The ICC has no way to enforce the law or arrest criminals- they depend on the UN Security Council to do it.

The Serbian genocide is a good case example of how our international system isn’t designed to prevent or stop war crimes. It is only designed to maybe bring a few of the wrong ethnicity/nationality war criminals to trial long after the innocent dead are bones in a field.

Its better than nothing, but it needs to be reformed to have more power.

Edited

It is only designed to maybe bring a few of the wrong ethnicity/nationality war criminals to trial long after the innocent dead are bones in a field.

Its better than nothing, but it needs to be reformed to have more power.

Agree but I am not sure what other non military option there is? We don't want countries taking up arms to stop war crimes so the legal route is the only option we have, plus others such as sanctions etc

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