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Conflict in the Middle East
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35
Mummy2024 · 09/06/2024 21:28

charchim · 09/06/2024 21:19

Taking action in the way you sp desperately want would involve killing and death, what is so hard to comprehend about that?

I do how it funny that you want Israel to be invaded and Netanyahu to be arrested, The UK to be invaded and Tony Blair arrested, Gaza to be invaded and the Hamas leaders arrested but not Russia. "Mr. Putin" doesn't have a high enough death toll for you.

No I do want him arrested also, it's just more difficult to enter Russia in this way. As it has extremely poor relations with quite a few countries around the world, especially the west. Russian people already think most of the west are very bad people so they wouldn't be so ready to accept that war crimes have been committed or that we should be the ones judging that.

When you say involve killing and death don't you mean more killing and death??? You know people are dying in their thousands right now, that shouldn't be forgotten.

Mummy2024 · 09/06/2024 21:37

charchim · 09/06/2024 20:09

You think the IDF would be fine with the British army marching into Israel to arrest their prime minister? Seriously?

And there have been plenty of Invasions throughout history that some would have called serving justice. Many in the Israeli government would think that what's happening in Gaza is serving justice. We were serving justice when we invaded Iraq. Putin probably thinks he's serving justice. Doesn't mean they weren't Invasions that resulted in war and death.

Edited

Your disingenuous and only looking to discredit me, I am not so desperately seeking to enter any other country but there's one thing your correct on I am desperately seeking the cessation of armed conflict on innocent civillians. I am desperately hoping aid gets into palastine and I am desperately hopeful innocent civillians will stop being killed on both sides. I am desperately hoping that anyone guilty of War crimes faces justice, one way or another and this prevents anyone else from taking criminal actions in war. I haven't seen you say any of what I've said above... would you agree all of the above should happen immediately?

charchim · 09/06/2024 21:44

Mummy2024 · 09/06/2024 21:28

No I do want him arrested also, it's just more difficult to enter Russia in this way. As it has extremely poor relations with quite a few countries around the world, especially the west. Russian people already think most of the west are very bad people so they wouldn't be so ready to accept that war crimes have been committed or that we should be the ones judging that.

When you say involve killing and death don't you mean more killing and death??? You know people are dying in their thousands right now, that shouldn't be forgotten.

Yes obviously I know people are dying right now, I'm not stupid.

I don't see why invading Israel would be harder than invading Russia. In both cases the army would try to stop you.

charchim · 09/06/2024 21:45

Mummy2024 · 09/06/2024 21:37

Your disingenuous and only looking to discredit me, I am not so desperately seeking to enter any other country but there's one thing your correct on I am desperately seeking the cessation of armed conflict on innocent civillians. I am desperately hoping aid gets into palastine and I am desperately hopeful innocent civillians will stop being killed on both sides. I am desperately hoping that anyone guilty of War crimes faces justice, one way or another and this prevents anyone else from taking criminal actions in war. I haven't seen you say any of what I've said above... would you agree all of the above should happen immediately?

Yes I do want that to happen, despite your baseless claims about me, just not at the cost of more war and death.

Mummy2024 · 09/06/2024 22:53

charchim · 09/06/2024 21:45

Yes I do want that to happen, despite your baseless claims about me, just not at the cost of more war and death.

I'm sorry you feel I'm the one that has made baseless claims against you. For me I feel it's very much the other way around.

I don't feel I've made any claims against you, I've only said that people are giving alot of attention and misrepresentation of some words I said and none to the people who are currently victims of war crimes.... I've made clear multiple times I by no means meant an invasion and forced take over of a sovereign nation and yet people still ignore my explanation and continue to suggest I want Israeli citizens to suffer. That is the last thing that I want.

charchim · 09/06/2024 23:08

Mummy2024 · 09/06/2024 22:53

I'm sorry you feel I'm the one that has made baseless claims against you. For me I feel it's very much the other way around.

I don't feel I've made any claims against you, I've only said that people are giving alot of attention and misrepresentation of some words I said and none to the people who are currently victims of war crimes.... I've made clear multiple times I by no means meant an invasion and forced take over of a sovereign nation and yet people still ignore my explanation and continue to suggest I want Israeli citizens to suffer. That is the last thing that I want.

If an army marches into Israel and arrests its leader that is an invasion. That's what that means. It's an act of war. What you want to happen is an invasion. The Israeli government and army would not let them do this even you think they should.

And the baseless claims I was referring to are these:

"It seems most people Answering me are fine for the laws of war to be broken and woman and children, slain with no consequences for people who made those decisions but one suggestion of other nations actually stepping in to ensure the laws of humanity are followed is evil."

Anyway, I give up. You're just going to keep saying you don't want crack any eggs, you just want to make an omelette. And say anyone who doesn't is happy about people dying in Gaza or something.

Mummy2024 · 09/06/2024 23:47

charchim · 09/06/2024 23:08

If an army marches into Israel and arrests its leader that is an invasion. That's what that means. It's an act of war. What you want to happen is an invasion. The Israeli government and army would not let them do this even you think they should.

And the baseless claims I was referring to are these:

"It seems most people Answering me are fine for the laws of war to be broken and woman and children, slain with no consequences for people who made those decisions but one suggestion of other nations actually stepping in to ensure the laws of humanity are followed is evil."

Anyway, I give up. You're just going to keep saying you don't want crack any eggs, you just want to make an omelette. And say anyone who doesn't is happy about people dying in Gaza or something.

Those words would be because there's lots of talk and accusations levelled at me that I have repeatedly said I do not want and did not mean but no actual ideas of what can be done to bring people accused of war crimes to Justice?. All I've heard is that would be declaring war and cause death. There's not been a single word of sympathy uttered in any response for the palastinian victims or any appetite shown to introduce something to stop this happening again. There's no outrage Coming from respondents about what is happening to people in Gaza, only words I've repeatedly said I did not mean, nor did I ever even once use the words invasion. So what am I supposed to think?

EasterIssland · 28/06/2024 13:17

https://www.timesofisrael.com/uk-challenges-icc-jurisdiction-over-israel-delaying-arrest-warrant-decision/amp

Britain challenges ICC’s jurisdiction over Israel, delaying arrest warrant decision

https://www.icc-cpi.int/sites/default/files/RelatedRecords/0902ebd180892e1f.pdf

An opinion about why this doesn’t leave uk in a good place https://x.com/tayab_ali_/status/1806459134138835154

SummerFeverVenice · 28/06/2024 17:18

Thank you, I saw that this morning and it made me very disappointed in my country.

Mummy2024 · 29/06/2024 03:09

SummerFeverVenice · 28/06/2024 17:18

Thank you, I saw that this morning and it made me very disappointed in my country.

Does it suprise you? When has Britain ever done the right thing... we're all prisoners of this mess and we will all eventually pay the price.

headstone · 30/06/2024 00:57

And people wonder why the protesting is so important I thus country, because our politicians influence things. I think Labour were planning not to contest the arrest warrant.

PeasfullPerson · 30/06/2024 12:29

It makes me sad and angry, to see our government acting against our best interests, and in defence of violations of human rights. But it’s not much of a surprise given their track record for deceiving their own people, with promises that don’t deliver, and attempts to water down our own rights.

EasterIssland · 03/07/2024 08:19

https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20240702-israel-asks-25-countries-to-intervene-against-icc-arrest-warrants-for-netanyahu-gallant/amp/

Israel sends letters to 25 countries to ask them to oppose to the arrest warrants

AhNowTed · 03/07/2024 08:46

EasterIssland · 03/07/2024 08:19

The irony of the link at the end of that article.

Israel Gaza war: ICC prosecutor seeks arrest warrants for Netanyahu and Hamas leaders
SummerFeverVenice · 03/07/2024 09:29

I read this in Haaretz the other day. It’s the top left leaning media source in Israel.
Analysis | Fact or fiction: Is Israel unfairly singled out for global condemnation?
'Biased, predetermined, hypocritical': This is how Israel's supporters characterize the attitude of the international community in terms of human rights and international law. In fact, until the Gaza war, what's striking is the long, free ride Israel has enjoyed.

edited to put in better link
https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2024-06-26/ty-article/.premium/fact-or-fiction-is-israel-unfairly-singled-out-for-global-condemnation/00000190-5053-d37f-a392-7afbfbaf0000

https://apple.news/AzgrRd77qRWCI_4zJ3QmCNQ

SummerFeverVenice · 03/07/2024 09:41

Sugars, I forget that I have a Haaretz subscription at times here are excerpts from the article (not the full text). You can read some articles for free on Haaretz and the entirety of this one if you register your email:

”The decades-old image that Israel alone gets named, blamed and punished for the kinds of things all others do for free is one of the greatest historical fictions in Israel's history. It would be more accurate to say that for most of its life, Israel has gotten an incredibly free ride in its foreign relations.”

“Israel has violated UN General Assembly resolutions, including 181 (the Partition Plan) and 194 (regarding Palestinian refugees) since the earliest years. In 1967, Israel occupied territory in war (not illegal in itself), which it has essentially been annexing in slow motion ever since - and yes, the prohibition against acquiring land by force applies to any territory, not only sovereign states.
Civilian settlements - a clear violation of international law - began almost immediately and never stopped other than in Gaza. Israel openly annexed East Jerusalem and the indisputably sovereign Syrian territory of the Golan Heights, and grabbed West Bank land through the separation wall.
All this has undermined Palestinian rights to self-determination, which has been affirmed numerous times by the UN.
Then came the severe closure policy over Gaza from 2007, separation between Gaza and the West Bank, and the wars in Gaza, all bringing human rights violations, and a vast toll on civilian life and infrastructure.”

Now consider other countries involved in serious violations of international law and norms.

“Most prominently, the UN has imposed sanctions regimes on Yugoslavia and Iraq; the United States has targeted sanctions on Venezuela since 2005; and there have been sweeping multilateral sanctions on Russia over the last decade. Israel has faced nothing at all by way of official, multilateral sanctions regimes. The boycott, divestment and sanctions movement has been a resounding failure on this front.”

”Regarding international associations, Israel has unconstrained access. Shortly after statehood, Israel joined the UN (although not on its first try). It participates in numerous partnerships, including with the Council of Europe and the OSCE, and in 2010, shortly after the first war in Gaza, Israel joined the OECD as one of just 38 members.”
“By contrast, Russia was kicked out of the Council of Europe due to its war in Ukraine from 2022. The G7 used to be the G8 until the 2014 invasion of Ukraine prompted Russia's eventual ouster-exit.”

“But there are worse fates: in 1974, the UN General Assembly literally suspended apartheid South Africa's participation in the Assembly for the next 20 years, until apartheid ended. Also in 1974, the UN Security Council voted on a resolution to expel South Africa from the international forum entirely. The unprecedented move was vetoed by the Americans, British and French. But many of the supporting countries also had abysmal human rights records, such as Algeria, Soviet Belarus, Cuba, Pakistan and Libya.
Kosovo can't join the UN at all, though it strains to comply with international law, and faces an ongoing de-recognition campaign fromSerbia, sometimes successful.
In the '60s, South Africa was also kicked out of the Olympics - twice. Much of the pressure to exclude it came from African countries, who presumably were not accused of being anti-African, as any Jewish person who supports a boycott of Israel would be.
In 1993, Yugoslavia was banned from the Eurovision Song Contest for the war in Bosnia, where people were starving and Sarajevo was under siege. The worst crimes - 8,000 civilians killed in Srebrenica, later designated as genocide by an international tribunal - hadn't even happened yet.

But Israel remains an enthusiastic participant in all Olympic Games as well as Eurovision.

Going back to the International Criminal Court and International Court of Justice, the accusation of singling out Israel or hypocrisy is just silly. The ICJ, the oldest postwar international court, has seen 195 cases submitted since 1947 - two of them were against Israel.

The ICC has indicted dozens of people since 2002, with more African defendants than others, while powerful Western countries face no accountability. On Tuesday, the court issued warrants to arrest more of Putin's top accomplices in the war. The current prosecutor, Karim Khan, has so far ignored the preliminary investigations of his predecessor, Fatou Bensouda, regarding the Israeli occupation.

The UN Watch NGO tracks putative endemic anti-Israelism at the international body - for example, by arguing that there have been more commissions of inquiry against Israel than other countries. Each of the two commissions related to Gaza wars (after operations Cast Lead and Protective Edge, in 2008-2009 and 2014, respectively) has been denounced in Israel as biased, predetermined and hypocritical.

But the UN Human Rights Council - admittedly a problematic body - has also established commissions for Ukraine, Syria, Burundi and Eritrea. There are also fact-finding missions, groups of independent experts, or independent investigative mechanisms for various countries - Sudan, Nicaragua, Myanmar, respectively, and other countries. I doubt Israelis have even browsed these reports; the anti-Israel bias is taken on faith.

But Israel is singled out in the UN - for special protection. According to one analysis, over half of all U.S. vetoes in the Security Council have been cast to protect Israel (45 of 89 up to late 2023). In 2002, the international relations scholar Stephen Zunes found that 91 UNSC resolutions were not being implemented at that time; the top scofflaw was Israel, which ignored one-third of them (31). I counted 18 U.S.vetos from the year 2000 to the present; 15 were about Israel and Palestine.
The U.S. role, of course, is also conspicuous regarding the lack of sanctions. Stock said: "Given how frequently the U.S. has imposed various kinds of economic sanctions or even organized other countries to coordinate on sanctions regimes ... since the 1990s, the fact that Israel has avoided anything of that nature is incredibly striking."

PeasfullPerson · 03/07/2024 21:51

That’s very informative. Thanks @SummerFeverVenice

keenforhelp · 03/07/2024 22:18

EasterIssland · 28/06/2024 13:17

Well done the UK. Right stance!

Scirocco · 03/07/2024 22:24

I really don't understand how any person with an ounce of decency can cheer on the killing of tens of thousands of innocent people on a background of occupation and oppression.

SummerFeverVenice · 03/07/2024 23:29

@keenforhelp

Haaretz is shunned by some Israelis

Its Hebrew print version has 72,000 subscribers as of 2022
Its Hebrew and English digital version has traffic of over 10 million unique visitors per month
It is the 3rd largest print news source in Israel with over 1000 staff and revenues over USD$500m

Haaretz is Zionist

Haaretz was founded by a Zionist Holocaust survivor and is currently 20% owned and published by his grand-son, who is also Zionist. The current publisher, Amos Schnoken, has stated repeatedly in interviews he is Zionist “Mr Schocken describes himself, and his family’s paper, as Zionist. “Ha’aretz is Zionism because Ha’aretz thinks the Jews need a place where they run the show, where they’re responsible for their destiny,” he says. “But as the declaration of [Israeli] independence said, Israel must offer full equality to non-Jews.”
https://www.ft.com/content/252f849c-75a5-11e6-bf48-b372cdb1043a

So, if supporting equality for non-Jews in Israel is a Pro-Palestinian agenda, it is an agenda that aligns with Zionism and with basic human rights.

SummerFeverVenice · 03/07/2024 23:37

To balance out the link to comments on quora by a few disgruntled individual random internet users that allege Haaretz publishes “fake news”, and is “extreme left” here is the fact check and bias report:

Bias Rating: LEFT
Factual Reporting: HIGH
Country: Israel
MBFC’s Country Freedom Rating: MODERATE FREEDOM
Media Type: Newspaper
Traffic/Popularity: High Traffic
MBFC Credibility Rating: HIGH CREDIBILITY

”Overall, we rate Haaretz Left biased based on story selection and editorial positions that strongly favor the Left and High for factual reporting due to a clean fact-check record.” -Last Updated on December 7, 2023
https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/haaretz/

Haaretz - Bias and Credibility

LEFT BIAS These media sources are moderate to strongly biased toward liberal causes through story selection and/or political affiliation.  They may

https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/haaretz

keenforhelp · 04/07/2024 00:35

SummerFeverVenice · 03/07/2024 23:29

@keenforhelp

Haaretz is shunned by some Israelis

Its Hebrew print version has 72,000 subscribers as of 2022
Its Hebrew and English digital version has traffic of over 10 million unique visitors per month
It is the 3rd largest print news source in Israel with over 1000 staff and revenues over USD$500m

Haaretz is Zionist

Haaretz was founded by a Zionist Holocaust survivor and is currently 20% owned and published by his grand-son, who is also Zionist. The current publisher, Amos Schnoken, has stated repeatedly in interviews he is Zionist “Mr Schocken describes himself, and his family’s paper, as Zionist. “Ha’aretz is Zionism because Ha’aretz thinks the Jews need a place where they run the show, where they’re responsible for their destiny,” he says. “But as the declaration of [Israeli] independence said, Israel must offer full equality to non-Jews.”
https://www.ft.com/content/252f849c-75a5-11e6-bf48-b372cdb1043a

So, if supporting equality for non-Jews in Israel is a Pro-Palestinian agenda, it is an agenda that aligns with Zionism and with basic human rights.

With respect , can you read and understand Ivrit?

Efacsen · 08/07/2024 08:10

Not entirely unsurprising given the choice of new AG who is an expert in international human rights

Labour expected to drop challenge to ICC over Netanyahu arrest warrant

www.theguardian.com/law/article/2024/jul/08/labour-expected-to-drop-challenge-to-icc-over-netanyahu-arrest-warrant

AhNowTed · 08/07/2024 08:20

Efacsen · 08/07/2024 08:10

Not entirely unsurprising given the choice of new AG who is an expert in international human rights

Labour expected to drop challenge to ICC over Netanyahu arrest warrant

www.theguardian.com/law/article/2024/jul/08/labour-expected-to-drop-challenge-to-icc-over-netanyahu-arrest-warrant

He's also Jewish.

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