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Conflict in the Middle East
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35
HelenHen · 20/05/2024 19:52

Nctodayjan24 · 20/05/2024 19:40

UN denies Gaza death toll of women and children has been revised down.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/world/article/2024/may/13/gaza-ministry-revises-figures-for-women-and-children-killed

If Fox News and Linsey Graham (long time gun owner) are on your side you probably are on the wrong side

Edited

I find it very uncomfortable that it now seems acceptable to refute the number of dead Palestinians... because 1. The number is clearly significant enough either way and 2. It makes me think of the holocaust and how ridiculous and offensive it is for anyone to even discuss the numbers, and rightly so. It seems to be one rule for Israel, and f* everyone else 😭

Nctodayjan24 · 20/05/2024 19:54

HelenHen · 20/05/2024 19:52

I find it very uncomfortable that it now seems acceptable to refute the number of dead Palestinians... because 1. The number is clearly significant enough either way and 2. It makes me think of the holocaust and how ridiculous and offensive it is for anyone to even discuss the numbers, and rightly so. It seems to be one rule for Israel, and f* everyone else 😭

Completely agree..the reaction here about what is essentially an administrative issue (probably because in some cases there are no bodies to identify) is shameful.

TakeMe2Insanity · 20/05/2024 19:56

Nctodayjan24 · 20/05/2024 19:54

Completely agree..the reaction here about what is essentially an administrative issue (probably because in some cases there are no bodies to identify) is shameful.

And also because their infrastructure is being blown to pieces. I doubt any country would be able to maintain total accuracy in such a situation.

keenforhelp · 20/05/2024 20:08

HelenHen · 20/05/2024 19:52

I find it very uncomfortable that it now seems acceptable to refute the number of dead Palestinians... because 1. The number is clearly significant enough either way and 2. It makes me think of the holocaust and how ridiculous and offensive it is for anyone to even discuss the numbers, and rightly so. It seems to be one rule for Israel, and f* everyone else 😭

Conflating the Holocaust with this is anti-Semitic.

keenforhelp · 20/05/2024 20:12

No genocide being committed by Israel, the ICC are being anti-Semitic and these are my staunch opinions based upon facts and that's just the way it is.

Accept them or not, but you are not going to change my mind and I am not going to give you evidence for my views as I don't need to.

Just know that Netanyahu, however misguided he may be, is not going to be arrested and that the UK and USA are going to carry on supporting Israel. They are a major ally and the only democracy in the ME. Focus on Sudan as well if you want to prove you do not come across as anti-Semitic.

pwrwulf · 20/05/2024 20:17

This reply has been deleted

This has been deleted by MNHQ for breaking our Talk Guidelines - previously banned poster.

TheFirmBiscuit · 20/05/2024 20:18

Belgium has come out in support of the Court.

https://twitter.com/hadjalahbib/status/1792527999784361999

x.com

https://twitter.com/hadjalahbib/status/1792527999784361999

TheFirmBiscuit · 20/05/2024 20:20

.

Israel Gaza war: ICC prosecutor seeks arrest warrants for Netanyahu and Hamas leaders
DistinguishedSocialCommentator · 20/05/2024 20:22

Sadly courts like this are for the benefit of those who are employed. They are a total waste of money as nothing will get done - fact

DistinguishedSocialCommentator · 20/05/2024 20:24

TheFirmBiscuit · 20/05/2024 20:18

Belgium has come out in support of the Court.

https://twitter.com/hadjalahbib/status/1792527999784361999

Edited

So are they goung to arrest the Israeli leader, Hamas leaders living it up in UAE or President Pootin - sorry, but the decision for me is 😂 in a sad way as its a total waste of money these so-called icc

Nctodayjan24 · 20/05/2024 20:25

keenforhelp · 20/05/2024 20:08

Conflating the Holocaust with this is anti-Semitic.

But you have no comment on the fact that your mistruths were called out you are just going to keep shouting the same thing

SummerFeverVenice · 20/05/2024 20:30

The ICC is only good for prosecuting war criminals long after the crimes have been done. The unnamed? Hamas leaders will likely be dead before even being arrested or shortly after arrest. Nethanyu and Gallant may eventually be arrested, if arrest warrants are issued. The US will pressure the panel not to issue the warrants over the next few months the process takes.

The earliest warrants could be issued would be August/September. I don’t think it will affect things on the ground as welcome as the news is because this dirty half dozen old men have destroyed families, lives, homes, everything has become a hellscape because of their pursuit of power.

carerlookingtochangejob · 20/05/2024 20:34

keenforhelp · 20/05/2024 20:12

No genocide being committed by Israel, the ICC are being anti-Semitic and these are my staunch opinions based upon facts and that's just the way it is.

Accept them or not, but you are not going to change my mind and I am not going to give you evidence for my views as I don't need to.

Just know that Netanyahu, however misguided he may be, is not going to be arrested and that the UK and USA are going to carry on supporting Israel. They are a major ally and the only democracy in the ME. Focus on Sudan as well if you want to prove you do not come across as anti-Semitic.

Edited

There's none so blind as those who cannot (or refuse to) see!

Auvergne63 · 20/05/2024 20:38

No genocide being committed by Israel, the ICC are being anti-Semitic and these are my staunch opinions based upon facts and that's just the way it is.

Accept them or not, but you are not going to change my mind and I am not going to give you evidence for my views as I don't need to.
So no evidence then? Ok. Thought so.

TheFirmBiscuit · 20/05/2024 20:39

As much as some would like this won't go away easily. It is a historic decision.
Gideon Rachman in the FT opines as ever with great wisdom.

A crushing blow for Israel and a massive gamble by the ICCT
The question of how the US responds to this now becomes critical

The decision by the chief prosecutor of the International Criminal Court to apply for arrest warrants against Benjamin Netanyahu and Yoav Gallant is a huge setback for Israel.

The fact that the ICC is also applying for warrants against the leaders of Hamas, in addition to the Israeli prime minister and defence minister, will not cushion the blow. On the contrary, outrage in Jerusalem will be further stoked by the implication that Israel is on the same moral level as a terrorist organisation.

The ramifications of the ICC’s move are enormous. Four immediate questions present themselves. First, what will the domestic impact be in Israel? Second, what impact will this have on the war in Gaza and the wider Middle East? Third, has the ICC over-reached and put its own future on the line? And fourth — and connected to this — how will the US respond to the proposed indictments?
Even the Israeli opposition has responded with outrage to the ICC’s actions. Yair Lapid, a centrist who has stayed out of Netanyahu’s governing coalition, accused the court of “complete moral failure”. This instinct to rally around the flag is unsurprising — very few mainstream politicians in Israel have questioned the conduct of the country’s army in Gaza.

However, the ICC’s move has come at a time when Netanyahu is under growing pressure to step down. Benny Gantz, a leading member of the Israeli war cabinet, said over the weekend that he would leave the government next month — unless Netanyahu came up with a new strategy for the war in Gaza and its aftermath.
Gantz, who has not been indicted, has joined in the generalised Israeli condemnation of the ICC. But many Israelis will be dismayed at the fact that their country is turning into a pariah state. Getting rid of Netanyahu and appointing a new prime minister may become a more attractive option over time, as Israel seeks to rebuild its international status.

An ICC indictment would also have severe practical implications on Netanyahu’s ability to do his job. International travel would certainly become more difficult — since he would be at risk of arrest in the 124 countries that are parties to the Rome Statute that set up the ICC. (These do not include the US, Russia or China.)
Optimists will hope that, in the long run, action by the ICC will convince Israel that its Gaza strategy is “taking Israel into a wall” — as Gantz has put it. That might persuade the next cohort of leaders to take the idea of a two-state solution with Palestine more seriously. The Israelis now know that the path back to international acceptance must involve a new peace process — and the marginalisation of Netanyahu. Many in Israel, including Netanyahu’s supporters and his far-right coalition partners, will continue to argue that any such move would imperil Israel’s survival. But the terms of the current debate within Israel will, at least, now widen.

The question of how the US will respond becomes critical. The White House has said that it does not support indictments by the ICC against Israel, arguing that — “We don’t believe they have the jurisdiction.”
But this is a relatively mild and limited condemnation compared to the full force assaults on the ICC that can be expected to come from the American right and from Donald Trump. John Bolton, Trump’s former national security adviser and a lawyer by training, has demanded that the US should now impose sanctions on the ICC and its judges. That demand is likely to be taken up in Congress and by the Trump campaign.

President Joe Biden will be reluctant to go down the sanctions route. The US is not a party to the ICC. But it does claim to be a supporter of the “rules-based international order” — and has welcomed the ICC indictment of Vladimir Putin, the Russian president. Biden also knows that many in the Democratic party are strongly opposed to Israel’s actions in Gaza — and have even accused the country of genocide. As a result, the US president has every incentive to equivocate, while hoping that Congress does not present him with a bill demanding sanctions against the ICC — which he might have to veto.
The possibility of US sanctions aimed at the ICC underlines the fact that the proposed indictments of Netanyahu and Gallant represent a momentous step by the court — potentially placing its own future on the line. Karim Khan, the court’s chief prosecutor, may have felt that he had little option. If the court is to retain its global legitimacy, it has to be seen to act against war crimes, whoever commits them and wherever they are committed.
However, the ICC unavoidably operates in a political context. It has indicted Putin, with little prospect of bringing him to trial. If Netanyahu is also able to brush aside an indictment, the court risks looking increasingly impotent and irrelevant.

Auvergne63 · 20/05/2024 20:39

carerlookingtochangejob · 20/05/2024 20:34

There's none so blind as those who cannot (or refuse to) see!

Or you can lead a horse to water but can't make it drink.

keenforhelp · 20/05/2024 20:40

Nctodayjan24 · 20/05/2024 20:25

But you have no comment on the fact that your mistruths were called out you are just going to keep shouting the same thing

No mistruths at all - so impossible to call them out. Just your opinions.

keenforhelp · 20/05/2024 20:41

TheFirmBiscuit · 20/05/2024 20:39

As much as some would like this won't go away easily. It is a historic decision.
Gideon Rachman in the FT opines as ever with great wisdom.

A crushing blow for Israel and a massive gamble by the ICCT
The question of how the US responds to this now becomes critical

The decision by the chief prosecutor of the International Criminal Court to apply for arrest warrants against Benjamin Netanyahu and Yoav Gallant is a huge setback for Israel.

The fact that the ICC is also applying for warrants against the leaders of Hamas, in addition to the Israeli prime minister and defence minister, will not cushion the blow. On the contrary, outrage in Jerusalem will be further stoked by the implication that Israel is on the same moral level as a terrorist organisation.

The ramifications of the ICC’s move are enormous. Four immediate questions present themselves. First, what will the domestic impact be in Israel? Second, what impact will this have on the war in Gaza and the wider Middle East? Third, has the ICC over-reached and put its own future on the line? And fourth — and connected to this — how will the US respond to the proposed indictments?
Even the Israeli opposition has responded with outrage to the ICC’s actions. Yair Lapid, a centrist who has stayed out of Netanyahu’s governing coalition, accused the court of “complete moral failure”. This instinct to rally around the flag is unsurprising — very few mainstream politicians in Israel have questioned the conduct of the country’s army in Gaza.

However, the ICC’s move has come at a time when Netanyahu is under growing pressure to step down. Benny Gantz, a leading member of the Israeli war cabinet, said over the weekend that he would leave the government next month — unless Netanyahu came up with a new strategy for the war in Gaza and its aftermath.
Gantz, who has not been indicted, has joined in the generalised Israeli condemnation of the ICC. But many Israelis will be dismayed at the fact that their country is turning into a pariah state. Getting rid of Netanyahu and appointing a new prime minister may become a more attractive option over time, as Israel seeks to rebuild its international status.

An ICC indictment would also have severe practical implications on Netanyahu’s ability to do his job. International travel would certainly become more difficult — since he would be at risk of arrest in the 124 countries that are parties to the Rome Statute that set up the ICC. (These do not include the US, Russia or China.)
Optimists will hope that, in the long run, action by the ICC will convince Israel that its Gaza strategy is “taking Israel into a wall” — as Gantz has put it. That might persuade the next cohort of leaders to take the idea of a two-state solution with Palestine more seriously. The Israelis now know that the path back to international acceptance must involve a new peace process — and the marginalisation of Netanyahu. Many in Israel, including Netanyahu’s supporters and his far-right coalition partners, will continue to argue that any such move would imperil Israel’s survival. But the terms of the current debate within Israel will, at least, now widen.

The question of how the US will respond becomes critical. The White House has said that it does not support indictments by the ICC against Israel, arguing that — “We don’t believe they have the jurisdiction.”
But this is a relatively mild and limited condemnation compared to the full force assaults on the ICC that can be expected to come from the American right and from Donald Trump. John Bolton, Trump’s former national security adviser and a lawyer by training, has demanded that the US should now impose sanctions on the ICC and its judges. That demand is likely to be taken up in Congress and by the Trump campaign.

President Joe Biden will be reluctant to go down the sanctions route. The US is not a party to the ICC. But it does claim to be a supporter of the “rules-based international order” — and has welcomed the ICC indictment of Vladimir Putin, the Russian president. Biden also knows that many in the Democratic party are strongly opposed to Israel’s actions in Gaza — and have even accused the country of genocide. As a result, the US president has every incentive to equivocate, while hoping that Congress does not present him with a bill demanding sanctions against the ICC — which he might have to veto.
The possibility of US sanctions aimed at the ICC underlines the fact that the proposed indictments of Netanyahu and Gallant represent a momentous step by the court — potentially placing its own future on the line. Karim Khan, the court’s chief prosecutor, may have felt that he had little option. If the court is to retain its global legitimacy, it has to be seen to act against war crimes, whoever commits them and wherever they are committed.
However, the ICC unavoidably operates in a political context. It has indicted Putin, with little prospect of bringing him to trial. If Netanyahu is also able to brush aside an indictment, the court risks looking increasingly impotent and irrelevant.

It's the FT!🙄

SummerFeverVenice · 20/05/2024 20:41

@keenforhelp
Why did you bring up the fact Israel is a democracy when saying you do not think the mass indiscriminate killing of civilians has not reached the threshold of genocide. Democratic countries have committed some of the worst genocides in history and the #1 worst ever genocide- the Holocaust. Or did you not know that Hitler was elected by the German voters?

Monarchy, democracy, etc is irrelevant to the question of is this genocide.

chatenoire · 20/05/2024 20:41

I'm Jewish and I think this is the right move

HelenHen · 20/05/2024 20:43

keenforhelp · 20/05/2024 20:08

Conflating the Holocaust with this is anti-Semitic.

Please quote me from the definition of antisemitism, as to what art of what I said was antisemitic, specifically?

The closest I can find is "Drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis.", which I did not do. I did not compare the actions or the policy. I simply pointed out how you disputing the figures would be upsetting and pointless.

But thank you for ignoring the rest of my comment and taking the lazy response.

HelenHen · 20/05/2024 20:45

keenforhelp · 20/05/2024 20:12

No genocide being committed by Israel, the ICC are being anti-Semitic and these are my staunch opinions based upon facts and that's just the way it is.

Accept them or not, but you are not going to change my mind and I am not going to give you evidence for my views as I don't need to.

Just know that Netanyahu, however misguided he may be, is not going to be arrested and that the UK and USA are going to carry on supporting Israel. They are a major ally and the only democracy in the ME. Focus on Sudan as well if you want to prove you do not come across as anti-Semitic.

Edited

Your opinion is not based on fact. The ICC is not antisemitic. In fact, perhaps I should refer your accusation to them. It's quite slanderous.

keenforhelp · 20/05/2024 20:45

carerlookingtochangejob · 20/05/2024 20:34

There's none so blind as those who cannot (or refuse to) see!

Describes you perfectly as what I said will happen.

Just wait and see.

SummerFeverVenice · 20/05/2024 20:46

@TheFirmBiscuit
Great post. Just wanted to add on to this
”If the court is to retain its global legitimacy, it has to be seen to act against war crimes, whoever commits them and wherever they are committed.”

Not wherever they are committed, only war crimes committed in the countries or territories under their jurisdiction. The US and Israel are not within ICC jurisdiction. The Occupied Palestinian Territories are within ICC jurisdiction. That was decided a few years ago.

Nctodayjan24 · 20/05/2024 20:46

keenforhelp · 20/05/2024 20:40

No mistruths at all - so impossible to call them out. Just your opinions.

The UN has denied that the estimated death toll of women and children in the war in Gaza has been revised downward, pointing towards a confusion between the total numbers of dead bodies recorded, and the number of those who have so far been fully identified.

Quote from the article.

You have lost any credibility whatsoever. It is a UN statement. Take the blinkers off

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