Two state Solution - is it possible?

[onegrumpyoldwoman]

I think the situation is comparable, geographically, to the Partitioning of British India. in 1947.

To stop bloody Hindu/Muslim fighting it was proposed that the Muslims were given their own State of Pakistan. This was made up of the two most Northern states of India which were split by part of India. They were West and East Pakistan
The reason for this was that these states had the biggest Muslim population already.

So Muslims headed North to their new country and Hindus headed South into the rest of India.

So far so good, - but not for long.

Bear with me as I get to the "kicker".

West Pakistan started trying to foist it's will on East Pakistan, which East Pakistan resisted. A bloody Civil War ensued which resulted in the break away of East Pakistan that became Bangladesh. The human cost in the War of Bangladeshi Independence was 3 million dead, in 8 months 2 weeks and 6 days. It is classed as a "Genocide".

Ghandi tried to make peace between the warring parties by suggesting a land corridor was established between the two countries that went across India. Rumour has it that this what what caused his assassination in 1948 by a Hindu Nationalist.

Well done to those who have got this far.🙂

There is a similar situation in the Holy Land.
There are two pockets of Palestinian people separated by Israel.
Each are controlled by a different group (Hamas controls Gaza - and Fatah controls The West bank} They have different ideologies.

Personally I can't see how a single state for the Palestinian people is possible.

Theoretically a two state solution should be possible but in practice it's not because there are too many extremists on both sides, and unfortunately they're the ones in power.

Well you did say Surely that means Palestinians are more at risk and need more protection than Israel, you don't seem too worried about their safety though, why is that?.

It's illogical and an appeal to the emotions to look at a numerical disparity between people killed on both sides and emotionally decide 'that's so terrible!' and assume that it must due to big bad Israel being evil - without looking at why they're different.

Yes, Israel is in the position of power. But I think the breakdown I put in my other post shows that people's behaviour and choices also changes their risk. And that in 2022, arguably most Palestinian deaths didn't come from Israel abusing their power (although some were - about as many as Israeli deaths by Palestinians - and more could have been avoided).

The majority came from Palestinians attacking Israelis and then being killed.

And in fact, that there were as many unprovoked Palestinian deaths by Hamas as by Israel.

You didn't mention the behaviour and choices of Israel though. Israel choosing to occupy the West Bank, choosing to allow illegal settlements, choosing to operate a two tier system in the West Bank, choosing to blockade Gaza. Why is it just the behaviour and choices of Palestinians that you are considering?

Attacking Israelis? Do we know that those 'attacks' were unprovoked, that those 'attacks' weren't Palestinians protecting themselves and their property?

You aren't looking at any of that? Why not? Given what we know about the huge rise of settler of violence in the West Bank surely you have considered this? You keep talking about logic but apply none if that to Israel. You act as if Israel are just peacefully going about their business in illegally occupied land coming up against Palestinians trying to attack and kill them. You do know about the huge rise in settler violence right? How many settlers were shot dead by the IDF for threatening Palestinians?

If settlers burn down your olive Grove and you take out a gun and threaten them if they don't leave is that an attack? If Israel bulldozes a school and children throw stones at them is that an attack? If settler refuse to leave your land and you threaten them with a gun is that an attack? If you refuse to be told what streets you can walk down and throw stones when questioned is that an attack? If your children are hassled by settlers on their way to school and they throw stones at them is that an attack? You can guarantee Israel would count all of them as an 'attack' but really who is the aggressor there?

We have no idea the circumstances of these 'attacks'. We do know that there is one rule for Palestinians and another for Israelis though. I can't seem to find any info on settlers being shot by the IDF just article after article talking about the IDF standing by and watching as they do as they please. Why do you think Israeli settlers are not shot for 'attacks'?

We have no idea the circumstances of these 'attacks

No, we don't. So why are you making up all sorts of imaginary scenarios?

I guess I'm just being logical. Why do you think there are no stories of settlers being shot given that we know they attack Palestinians?

That's not logical. It's emotionally manipulative fiction to back your narrative.

I've seen plenty of stories of settlers being forcibly moved away from revenge attacks on Palestinians - as they should be.

I guess the settlers haven't been shot because they haven't threatened the security forces, or shot Palestinians. The Palestinians who were killed in 2022 were primarily killed after they opened fire at Israeli forces or Israeli civilians

People can check stats themselves using this page
https://www.statista.com/chart/16516/israeli-palestinian-casualties-by-in-gaza-and-the-west-bank/
Link in text to data source.

That's weird because Google has plenty of news stories of settlers shooting Palestinians. None of the IDF shooting them though. This investigation by the NYT doesn't seem to back up your imaginative narrative of Palestinians being protected from settlers by the IDF. Given what we know about how the settlers are supported by IDF is it really emotionally manipulative to acknowledge it or is manipulative to ignore it completely when talking about 'attacks' I the West Bank because it doesn't back up your narrative?
https://www.nytimes.com/2024/05/16/magazine/israel-west-bank-settler-violence-impunity.html

Of the 146 Palestinians killed in the West Bank by Israelis, 42 Palestinians (29%) were killed while armed or allegedly armed. Most of the 42 also opened fire at Israeli forces or Israeli civilians

The Palestinians who were killed in 2022 were primarily killed after they opened fire at Israeli forces or Israeli civilians

Make up your mind which is it? Most of 29% of Palestinians who were killed or the Palestinians who were primarily killed were killed after opening fire at Israeli forces or civillians? Both of these can't be true.

Fair enough, only 29% had actually already opened fire. However, since an additional 41 deaths were judged lawful by a human rights organisation, that means they presented immediate lethal threat. That takes it up to 56%, ie the majority.

I question your stats though tbh. My research tells me that 204 were killed in 2022 - 142 of whom were from the West Bank (69.6%), 37 from the Gaza Strip (18.1%), 20 from Jerusalem (9.8%), and five from the Arab localities within Israel (2.4%). And that figure doesn't include the 18 Palestinians killed 'inadvertently' during Israeli attacks. That makes a total of 222 Palestinians to your lesser total of 182. So I'm not sure you are the most reliable narrator here?

To add analysis of the victim groups and contexts of the killings revealed that 125 of those killed were civilians who were uninvolved in any clashes, accounting for 61.2% of the total death toll. This is when you don't include those 'inadvertently' killed.

I agree @PearlKoala

I also think there are cultural elements at play here. In the UK we view Bloody Sunday (14 civilian deaths) as a bad event, not a standard one.

Ah, you're right - I read 182 killed in the West Bank by IDF forces, and missed the 5 killed in the West Bank by Israeli civilians and 3 where both civilians and IDF were at the incident so it's unknown who killed them. So I'm 8 too low. Apologies.

UN OCHA count 191 total. They don't go into much detail about the circumstances though.

I don't know where your 222 comes from.

I think the 18 'inadvertently killed' Palestinians are probably the 15 killed in the Gaza Strip by rockets or mortar bombs which Palestinian militants fired at Israel and landed in the Gaza Strip during “Operation Breaking Dawn”; and the 2 killed in the West Bank by Palestinian gunfire. Your numbers don't seem to include the 5 executed by Hamas.

https://www.project-syndicate.org/commentary/israel-palestine-no-solution-in-strict-two-state-separation-by-yanis-varoufakis-2024-05

Sorry, I haven’t read through the thread so apologies if this has already been shared, but just incase it hasn’t. I think he makes some good points.

I explained clearly where I got my numbers from.
2022 - 142 of whom were from the West Bank (69.6%), 37 from the Gaza Strip (18.1%), 20 from Jerusalem (9.8%), and five from the Arab localities within Israel (2.4%). And that figure doesn't include the 18 Palestinians killed 'inadvertently' during Israeli attacks.

Your numbers don't seem to include the 5 executed by Hamas.

Your numbers didn't include a lot. You made up figures to back up inflammatory claims.

If you want to destroy your enemy, you have to understand them. Hamas have to be annihilated.
From The Hamas Covenant:

The Islamic Resistance Movement is a distinguished Palestinian movement, whose allegiance is to Allah, and whose way of life is Islam. It strives to raise the banner of Allah over every inch of Palestine." (Article 6)

"Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it." (Preamble)

"The land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf [Holy Possession] consecrated for future Moslem generations until Judgment Day. No one can renounce it or any part, or abandon it or any part of it." (Article 11)
"Palestine is an Islamic land... Since this is the case, the Liberation of Palestine is an individual duty for every Moslem wherever he may be." (Article 13)

"The day the enemies usurp part of Moslem land, Jihad becomes the individual duty of every Moslem. In the face of the Jews' usurpation, it is compulsory that the banner of Jihad be raised." (Article 15)
"Ranks will close, fighters joining other fighters, and masses everywhere in the Islamic world will come forward in response to the call of duty, loudly proclaiming: 'Hail to Jihad!'. This cry will reach the heavens and will go on being resounded until liberation is achieved, the invaders vanquished and Allah's victory comes about." (Article 33)

Rejection of a negotiated peace settlement:
"[Peace] initiatives, and so-called peaceful solutions and international conferences are in contradiction to the principles of the Islamic Resistance Movement... Those conferences are no more than a means to appoint the infidels as arbitrators in the lands of Islam... There is no solution for the Palestinian problem except by Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are but a waste of time, an exercise in futility." (Article 13)

I'm asking for your source. Especially since your numbers don't match the UN's ones.

My numbers were 9 lower than the UN ones. I've explained why and apologised: an error in my reading, rather than an error in the source.

Your numbers are 30 higher than the UN ones. And seem to blame Israel for Palestinians killed by other Palestinians.

ReliefWeb, a humanitarian information service provided by the United Nations Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs (OCHA).

Tbh it isn't good enough for someone to post inflammatory untrue statements as if fact then wait until you are pulled up on your mistruths to apologise for it. Gross posts about Palestinian 'choices and behaviour' completely ignoring the choices and behaviour of the occupying power. Completely ignoring that most deaths occur during Israeli incursions on Palestinian territories. Implying that Palestinians should make the choice to lie back and take whatever Israel want to deal or it is their fault that their 'choices and behaviour' led to their own killings.

I included 18 deaths that occurred during Israeli attacks. That is fact.

I'm done with this conversation now. Your posts clearly show your view of Palestinians and it isn't pretty. 41 children killed in 2022 and you sit there and talk about how they should have made better 'choices'. Smh

UN OCHA Palestinian deaths in 2022 are listed as 30 lower than you claim (you can check my link). And you included 18 deaths from Hamas terrorists sending bombs at Israel which fell short, and Hamas terrorists shooting. You pretend those are deaths caused by Israel.

It's you who is making inflammatory untrue statements.

Gross posts about Palestinian 'choices and behaviour' completely ignoring the choices and behaviour of the occupying power.

42 Palestinians were shot having opened fire on IDF or civilians.

Not Hamas actions. Not Israel's actions. Their choice to shoot at people. If a terrorist starts shooting at people, then that makes them responsible for their own death.

Others of course were blameless, as I said all along.

It's too many deaths. All of them. On both sides.

But pretending that the problem is from one side only is wrong. And means you push for solutions which will never come about. Like Israel dissolving itself (going back to this thread!)

I still believe that the Palestinians best bet for themselves is to stop terrorism. Not because of blame, not because I favour Israel, but because terrorism doesn't gain them anything and it's the main blocker which they can control to them getting at least some of what they want.

You are free to disagree.

Here's the UN OCHA image, in case you don't want to follow the link.

I still believe that the Palestinians best bet for themselves is to stop terrorism. Not because of blame, not because I favour Israel, but because terrorism doesn't gain them anything and it's the main blocker which they can control to them getting at least some of what they want.

Agreed and Israel need to stop their terrorist activities and terrorisng behaviours in the West Bank and now Gaza.

I think Palestine needs financial and security assistance from other countries on the basis that it does not plan any further terrorist activities.

US needs to put a tighter rein on Israel as they are supporting their terror activities in Gaza and making the situation much worse. They are enabling Israel like an indulgent father who wont stop giving their child money for drugs.

I can’t see how Israel and Palestine could immediately move from their current situation to being one state. There is too much pain and anger. Imagine that every time you went to the corner shop you wondered if you might meet the person that kidnapped or bombed your children. It is unworkable.

Agreed. And the real person to go after, instead of another 36,000 plus thousands upon thousands wounded or rubble- buried citizens of many women and children, is Sinwar, the maniac master mind behind all this, who is not even in Gaza.

If you can, I urge you to look up this Haaretz April 5 2024 headline in archive ph. (Haaretz is an Israeli newspaper but with many views discussed)

Hamas Actually Believed It Would Conquer Israel. In Preparation, It Divided the Country Into Cantons

Just under the headline excerpt:
Tens of thousands of Gazans have fled to Egypt since the war broke out, many of them members of the elite who are able to pay the enormous costs. I met old friends in Cairo who were still astonished at the messianic insanity that seized Hamas' leadership

excerpt,(my bolding)

Already then, he says, he knew that Hamas had gone off the deep end. When they started talking about "the last promise," he too didn't think it was serious. But in 2021, his opinion changed. By then Iyad realized that this wasn't some off-the-wall idea propounded by a coterie of "wild weeds," but that the entire leadership had been taken captive by the Sinwar group's deranged idea of an all-out battle. They had an orderly plan and they believed they were fulfilling a divinely ordained mission.

"So strongly did they believe in the idea that Allah was with them, and that they were going to bring Israel down, that they started dividing Israel into cantons, for the day after the conquest."