Two state Solution - is it possible?

[onegrumpyoldwoman]

I think the situation is comparable, geographically, to the Partitioning of British India. in 1947.

To stop bloody Hindu/Muslim fighting it was proposed that the Muslims were given their own State of Pakistan. This was made up of the two most Northern states of India which were split by part of India. They were West and East Pakistan
The reason for this was that these states had the biggest Muslim population already.

So Muslims headed North to their new country and Hindus headed South into the rest of India.

So far so good, - but not for long.

Bear with me as I get to the "kicker".

West Pakistan started trying to foist it's will on East Pakistan, which East Pakistan resisted. A bloody Civil War ensued which resulted in the break away of East Pakistan that became Bangladesh. The human cost in the War of Bangladeshi Independence was 3 million dead, in 8 months 2 weeks and 6 days. It is classed as a "Genocide".

Ghandi tried to make peace between the warring parties by suggesting a land corridor was established between the two countries that went across India. Rumour has it that this what what caused his assassination in 1948 by a Hindu Nationalist.

Well done to those who have got this far.🙂

There is a similar situation in the Holy Land.
There are two pockets of Palestinian people separated by Israel.
Each are controlled by a different group (Hamas controls Gaza - and Fatah controls The West bank} They have different ideologies.

Personally I can't see how a single state for the Palestinian people is possible.

Are you suggesting this ‘civilised solution’ includes terrorist groups as part of a government coalition with Israel? A large proportion of Palestinians support Hamas and other terrorist groups in Gaza so I would assume they’d want them as part of their government.

What would this one state be called because Hamas and others in the area are dedicated to the destruction of Israel (i.e Jewish people) so I’d assume they want it renamed.

Would Israel and Israelis no longer exist? What would be on passports?

Would you be happy to have terrorists capable of up close and personal gang rape and the kind of barbaric atrocities carried out on Oct 7th living alongside you, walking your streets and deciding what goes on in your country? Oh and as a PP stated, you’d become a minority group. Let’s not forget the wars, rocket bombardments, suicide bombings, stabbings, kidnappings and multitude of terrorist attacks Israel suffered long before Oct 7th hence having to blockade Gaza.

There’s a reason why the iron dome was created, and is the only of its kind in the world, every Israeli dwelling has to be built with a bomb shelter, and there are bomb shelters and sirens in public places everywhere.

Utterly deluded.

The only solution here is for Egypt to take and administer Gaza and Jordan to take back and administer the West Bank, until a peaceful government of Palestinians can be formed (i.e non terrorists who are prepared to live peacefully alongside Israel).

They’re the ones who caused this in the first place and there’s not much focus on them.

I think the idea of the West bank and Gaza being administered and indeed being a design part of Egypt and Gaza might have traction. Jordan and Egypt are by no means perfect states but have administered the territories historically and have state infrastructure and identity in place. There would be no need for terror groups in governance as well.

Maybe it would be easier to think about it I a different way? If you were a 12 year old child in Gaza today what would be the best solution for you? What would be best for a 12 year old Israeli child? How do we limit the impact of what has happened and maximise the chances of those children living in a better world than we do today?
We can still choose and try for better for everyone.

One issue and maybe an intractable one is to make the new generations want peace. I guess Palestinian children will need to be taught to respect their Jewish neighbours and vice versa.Arab society has to leave the idea of Israel not existing behind and normalisation of Arab state with Israel given a new impetus. We also have to minimise the influence of Iran who simply do not wish peace.

Ultimately I think economically it would be difficult for Palestine to function as a fully independent state and need to be embodied. or administered by its Arab neighbours

The Palestinian flag would be a source of regional identity such as the Cornish flag in the UK. Importantly Israel would be more confident in its security knowing the Palestinain people were governed by actors who aren't exactly friendly but don't engage in state sponsored terrorism.

I don’t think it is possible sadly as Israel would never allow any kind of Palestinian state, even a peaceful one. There would have to be some kind of pressure or an enormous carrot given to Israel. I think those countries with the power to do anything would prefer Palestinian to live as perpetual refugees.

I believe that if I was a 12 year old child in Gaza, the best improvement for my life chances would be for Palestinians to just stop attacking Israel.

There is no possible upside to their attacks, no military game plan which improves my life.

And if they stop then there's a chance that in about a generation, there will be a 2 state solution. And my own child will have many more opportunities (and I won't have to worry about them being killed in interminable wars)

If I was a 12 year old Israeli child, the best improvement for my life chances would be for my country's army to destroy the terrorists who are actively plotting to rape and kill me. My country has the military force to do that, although at high cost to non-Israelis whose population those terrorists are part of.

Oh, and as that 12 year old Israeli child, it doesn't really matter whether it's 2% of the Palestinian population who are plotting to rape and kill me (size of Hamas military pre-war) or 4% (since people keep saying that this will bring in more Hamas recruits) Both of those numbers are too high.

Given that I do have a powerful military, removing their murderous capability is a better bet for my future than allowing them to continue at 2%.

Or even giving loads of concessions to get that number down to 1%. Especially if those concessions make it easier for the remaining 1% (which I don't believe you would get below) to attack my country and kill me.

And that's why the solution has to come from the Palestinians, not Israel.

And the Israeli child’s older siblings and cousins and their parents who have perpetrated your suggested purge @statsfun ? What sort of people will they be after they have done that? What sort of fathers and mothers and leaders will they become? What sort of relationships will the child seek if they have been taught that is the way people stay safe?

For the 12 year old in Gaza your solution doesn’t seem to offer much at all. there's a chance that in about a generation, there will be a 2 state solution if you don’t get killed in the meantime. Will the child be able to live in their home, receive an education, eat, travel, prosper? Is all they should hope for that they won’t be bombed.

Few people see Israel’s army as “powerful”. True power speaks softly and commands respect. Brute force rarely conveys anything of substance

@statsfun
What a chilling response. All Palestine's fault, all about protecting the Israeli child. Well guess what many of us care about both children and care that both are safe and are not blinkered to believe that the solution is only one sides responsibility or in one sides hands. At the moment the only child in this scenario that is unlikely to reach adulthood is the Palestinian child and that is what needs to change. All children should be able to grow up in safety and peace and it is everyone's responsibility to protect all children. Protect them from the IDF and Israeli governments onslaught in Gaza and also their treatment of Palestinians in the West Bank and protect them from terrorists like Hamas.

Don't pretend you care about the welfare of any Israeli child when you want their home to be invaded and cou try to be dissolved.

@blurry5205 what on Earth are you talking about?

We are trying to discuss what would bring the best outcome for everyone. Do you honestly think this slaughter is a good thing? That both victim and perpetrator aren’t being damaged?

No I don't think slaughter is a good thing. Including the slaughter that would come from Israel being invaded, its government overthrown and the state dissolved against the will of its people which is what you want to happen.

It is @TomeTome who suggested that we look at the best future from each child in turn.

You can't expect anyone to agree to a deal which leaves them in a worse position than they would be if they didn't agree to it.

So it's necessary to be realistic about the options available to each side involved in a negotiation, what will benefit them, and the impact on them of proposed concessions.

The negotiation is to find the areas where a concession has more value to one side than the other. The idea being that each side makes concessions which is of lower value to them than the other side, so that both sides better off than if the agreement had not been reached.

Almost all the concessions being sought in the 2 state solution have a potential cost to Israel: a cost which comes almost entirely from on-going terrorism, because the concessions increase Israel's security risk.

The only gain to Israel from the 2SS is increased security.

Put that beside the fact that attacking Israel doesn't benefit the Palestinians in any way. They can't make a genuine difference to Israel's military ability (unlike Israel - who can genuinely reduce Hamas capability). There's no cost to the Palestinians to stopping attacks.

So it's the obvious way to actually stop the war. Stop the Palestinian attacks and terrorism on Israel. This has no cost to the Palestinians and substantially reduces the cost (risk) to Israel of making the concessions the Palestinians want.

This has nothing to do with valuing Israeli children above Palestinian children. Nothing to do with fault or responsibility. Only to with pragmatically finding a solution which actually gives both sides a benefit - which is necessary for them to accept it.

I’d much rather talk about what could lead to a good outcome for all than defend rather silly attempts to demonise me personally. What you describe so emotionally is what is being suggested for the Palestinians. I’m sure they feel the same hot distress you do.

I’d like to see both children grow to old age in the land they love, with their children and grandchildren around them. I’d like them to be free to speak, and to travel and to have access to education and healthcare and look back on happy and fulfilling lives that they could feel proud of. Isn’t that what we all want in some form or other? I don’t believe it is beyond the abilities of either side to take the first step, and then the next and then the next.

Statsfun , would it cost anything to remove the settlers from the West Bank? That is something obvious that Isreal could do if it wants to show it’s willing for peace.

That isn't going to go down well with the zionists!

I think that should definitely be a concession Israel could give once security has improved - lower cost to them than benefit to the Palestinians.

Unfortunately, they did that with Gaza 2005 - forcibly removed all Israeli settlers and gave control to the Palestinians - and that paved the way to October 7th.

I think it's unlikely they would make the same unilateral move again. It has historically proved to have a very high cost to Israel.

Unlike stopping terrorist attacks, which has zero cost to Palestinians.

Is Zionist everyone who accepts existence of Israel as a Jewish country and doesn't promote pseudo solutions like dissolving them?

It would cost a good will and remove one bargaining chip.
That said, it should be part of the next steps package.

If its so bad for the Palestinians then why are you suggesting it for Israel? Why do you want the worlds only Jewish state to be invaded and forcibly dissolved?

Really? All of us support the settlers?

@blurry5205 what I was saying was if you find the suggestion so bad for Israel then that is probably how the Palestinians feel too. I’d like a single state, but we are trying to discuss what would get the best outcome for people in the region going forward.

I'd still like to know what you meant by "you" here BTW.

Maybe Israel could show Palestine they want peace, release the Palestinian hostages, dismantle the Israeli Offence Force, give the 10 billion USDollars coming from Biden to the Gazans so they can rebuild their land, and agree to one state with equal votes for all