Two state Solution - is it possible?

[onegrumpyoldwoman]

I think the situation is comparable, geographically, to the Partitioning of British India. in 1947.

To stop bloody Hindu/Muslim fighting it was proposed that the Muslims were given their own State of Pakistan. This was made up of the two most Northern states of India which were split by part of India. They were West and East Pakistan
The reason for this was that these states had the biggest Muslim population already.

So Muslims headed North to their new country and Hindus headed South into the rest of India.

So far so good, - but not for long.

Bear with me as I get to the "kicker".

West Pakistan started trying to foist it's will on East Pakistan, which East Pakistan resisted. A bloody Civil War ensued which resulted in the break away of East Pakistan that became Bangladesh. The human cost in the War of Bangladeshi Independence was 3 million dead, in 8 months 2 weeks and 6 days. It is classed as a "Genocide".

Ghandi tried to make peace between the warring parties by suggesting a land corridor was established between the two countries that went across India. Rumour has it that this what what caused his assassination in 1948 by a Hindu Nationalist.

Well done to those who have got this far.🙂

There is a similar situation in the Holy Land.
There are two pockets of Palestinian people separated by Israel.
Each are controlled by a different group (Hamas controls Gaza - and Fatah controls The West bank} They have different ideologies.

Personally I can't see how a single state for the Palestinian people is possible.

I think normally people are talking about Palestine and Isreal when they discuss a two state solution not what you are suggesting. Personally I think a single state with Israeli and Palestinians given equal rights as there is in South Africa post apartheid is what should be aspired to.

OK.

So where would you envisage this Palestinian State being, geographically?

Sorry I’m not sure what you are asking? I do not think Palestinians should be corralled in the areas they are nor do I think different people within Isreal should be subjected to different laws/rules/restrictions. I think a single state encompassing the entire area is what should be worked towards. This is usually described as the “Single state solution”, the “two state solution” usually is taken to mean the objective is a state fore Isreal and a state for Palestine. You know this surely?

Yes I know the difference between a "two state solution" and a "one state solution"

So your idea is a "one state solution"?

Good luck with that one.🙄

Arf at it being “my idea”. Thank you for your “luck” I think people were similarly dismissive of post apartheid SA having any chance of prospering. I think we can and should all hope for equality and inclusion for all.

I'm sure @onegrumpyoldwoman knows that the 2 states of the proposed 2-state solution are Israel and Palestine, with Palestine made up of Gaza and the West Bank.

I think she's proposing that a 3- state solution might work better: Israel, Gaza and the West Bank all being independent states.

It's an interesting idea. It would solve some practical problems to do with the separate territories. Geographically separate territories within the same Palestinian state isn't an insurmountable difficulty - it works for other countries eg Malaysia, or even Kalingrad being separate from the rest of Russia - but the poor relationship with Israel whose territory separates Gaza and the West Bank would make it challenging.

As separate states, Gaza and the West Bank would each be quite small - but there are plenty of even smaller countries which are successful (Malta is slightly smaller than Gaza, let alone the other European microstates )

I have no idea what Palestinians would prefer: separate states or a single state with a gap in the middle.

I have no idea what Palestinians would prefer: separate states or a single state with a gap in the middle. I think it would be clearer to describe it as you did as two state or three state and I would imagine neither would be the preference of Palestinians but once they’ve stopped being bombed and starved to oblivion and communication is restored I would imagine they will be able to tell us themselves.

"There are two pockets of Palestinian people separated by Israel."

What does that matter.

Alaska and Hawaii are separated from the US by huge distances.

It's just geography.

Something that with a little imagination can be overcome.

Well Ted, I'm afraid can't decide if you are incredible naive or just a cock-eyed optimist 🤔

You said "It's just geography.

Something that with a little imagination can be overcome."

Well in that case the Pakistani people must have been totally lacking in imagination in 1971 when the Bangladeshi War of Liberation started.🙄

The war began when the Pakistani military junta based in West Pakistan launched Operation Searchlight against the people of East Pakistan on the night of 25 March 1971, initiating the Bangladesh Genocide.

The human cost of Bangladeshi independence was 3 million dead.

Well obviously they would like the whole of the former Palestinian mandate area to be an Islamic state. But that's never been a reasonable suggestion, and certainly isn't going to happen now with the state of Israel having been established for 75 years.

I agree that whether Gaza and the West Bank eventually become 2 separate states or a single state will be up to the Palestinians once they have their own state. There's a fair way to go before that's possible unfortunately.

I think the only reason it would be worth talking about it beforehand would be if one of those states was stable/non-militant enough to form a state before the other was. But I suspect that Palestinians would be suspicious of having one of them independent whilst the other wasn't yet, and wouldn't pursue that even if it was possible.

@statsfun "Well obviously they would like the whole of the former Palestinian mandate area to be an Islamic state. "

So obviously they would like to see the annihilation of the State Of Israel?

Interesting.

Well obviously they would like the whole of the former Palestinian mandate area to be an Islamic state. But that's never been a reasonable suggestion, and certainly isn't going to happen now with the state of Israel having been established for 75 years. and obviously the Israelis would like it to be a Jewish State or is it possible that both sides could think of a new way together? I think it is. It reminds me of the two women claiming the same baby. Love the child enough and you would never opt to cut it in half.

@TomeTome obviously the Israelis would like it to be a Jewish State

Are you aware that the original Palestine Mandate contained Transjordan which includes the West Bank of today and the Kingdom of Jordan.

Israel have never aspired to own the Hashimite Kingdom !

Yeah, partition of a geographical area into 2 separately governed states isn't exactly the same as cutting a child in two is it?

So what's the relevance of that story exactly?

It’s an oft told story, I’m sure most reading will have heard it. I believe a one state solution is what we should be aspiring too. Whole. Not two parts or three or more. I believe those who want separation will destroy the entire region.

@onegrumpyoldwoman

The distance between Gaza and the West Bank is a mere 40 km or 25 miles.

Now maybe I'm naive or in your words a "cock-eyed optimist", but surely it's not beyond the wit of man to build a dedicated road between the two.

There are already segregated roads in Israel, are there not?

The whole point of the story is that cutting a child in 2 will kill it. But splitting a geographical area into 2 states doesn't cause any physical harm. So it's a bit silly to use the story as an analogy for a 2-state solution.

A 1-state solution isn't acceptable to Israel for very obvious reasons.

Well the current right wing extremist government of Israel is no mood for any state solutions. They have to go first before the idea can be pursued properly.

Given the conflict - and that security is the main blocker to a 2-state solution - it's not really a matter of overcoming geographical distance.

The issue with a 2 state solution will be Jerusalem. Who gets it?

Netanyahu does not want 2 states. He wants an Israel which encompasses the West Bank and Gaza,( as promised by God in the Bible ?) Hence his attempt to get eg Egypt to open its borders to let people from Gaza in ( not going to happen ) or to raze Gaza so there is no one left or they flee in another direction, leaving the area for Israelis ( also not going to happen as where could they go.) He will find that he cannot defeat Hamas whose support may grow and is stuck in an unwinnable war in Gaza which he can't get out of, while facing an international community eg USA who could threaten to pull all support. The result would risk disaster for the Jewish people.

The People of Gaza and/or West Bank do not want to be ruled by Israel. They want a Palestinian State for Palestinians with preferably (in some cases) no Jews so a not dissimilar mirror image of Netanyahu's position.

There are approximately 7+ Million Palestinians and also about 7+ Israelis in this 'Greater Israel' encompassing Israel, Occupied Territories , Gaza, West Bank.

The Israeli Government does not want the Palestinians in Israel to have equal rights to the Jews as he believes only with the Jewish people in control can their safety be ensured. Ditto Palestinians re Jews.

At present the Palestinians have no independent effective Government in either the West Bank or Gaza and have few rights within Israel. They are being bombed and starved.

The rationale for the establishment of Israel that they would have a safe haven has been shattered by the events of October 7th. 500,000 Israelis left after October 7th and many more are planning to leave probably, though many will not find it easy to find country to accept them or that they want to go to. ( See Palestinians similar dilemna above.).

It is not unlike the situation in Northern Ireland where an impoverished Protestant people were invited to come from Scotland and England and occupy the land of a hostile rebellious native Irish people ( mainly Catholic), supposedly 'pacifying' the country for the English who had had to face repeated insurrection etc from the native Irish for centuries.

The solution in Ireland (The Good Friday Agreement) was more democracy for everyone with 'power sharing' where each community was guaranteed equal rights and representation. Initially neither side were thrilled, ( both sides wanted full control), but the people of the 6 counties voted for peace and the settlement, was brokered by an International Community including the Republic of Ireland, GB and the USA. Similarly a peace was brokered in South Africa between the Apartheid Government and the people lead by Nelson Mandela.

Whether a similar peace can be brokered for Jews and Palestinians I don't know but some similar reconciliation is worth trying, maybe, as the alternative, war, does not seem to be giving any winners.

There are quite a few issues, which different people consider more or less intractable. Certainly, an enormous amount of time and effort from world leaders has gone into trying to solve it over the years, with no success. A solution seems more distant than ever.

Israelis don't want to live in an Islamist state. This is a reasonable preference for self-determination.

And as you say, losing control of their army in a Palestinian-majority 1-state solution would leave Jewish people completely vulnerable.

It's not going to happen. Pretending that it's a reasonable option is fairly pointless.

Oh, and Arab Israelis do have equal rights to Jewish Israelis within Israel. They make up 20% of the population of Israel, and are well integrated.

Palestinians who are not Israeli citizens obviously don't have citizenship rights. They also don't have citizenship rights of Jordan or Egypt - since again, they are not citizens of those countries.