Terrible but not surprised - Jewish community under threat

[mids2019]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cx0331xxd7xo

It appears Jews are not safe in the UK at all.

Can we seriously look at the impact of anti semitism now?

Seriously, do some posters think that if they call something antisemitic they’ll be fined £10,000 or something? Why is it SO hard to say it??

This is the subtleties I’m talking about. Refusing to EVER admit something is antisemitic is, well, very telling.

And yes I call out antisemitism when I see it. Sorry if that inconveniences you. Perhaps a bit of self reflection of why this keeps happening to you wouldn’t go amiss?

If you’ve no reason to not believe me why can’t you tell me if it’s antisemitic to bring Israel into a thread about antisemitism? Can yoy not even imagine it to be true and give an answer? Why is it SO HARD for you to do that?

I’ll put it another way - if someone is talking about discrimination against Palestinians and I said “Well the atrocities in Saudi Arabia are disgraceful so what do they expect” - would you shrug and say “it's not on me, nothing to do with me”???

I think my fear is that anti semitism is going to be further embedded in British society because of this war and there is going to be an allowance for it by some quarters because well.....Gaza. There may be a generation of students who naively are going down paths that lead to the alienation of Jews on campuses with an expectation that reasonable carry stigma simply because of events in the middle East which is abhoreent. In addition any one complaining about anti semtism may be simply told to check their privilege and look at some footage from Gaza. It is the racism that is somehow acceptable in extreme left wing circles and for some in the Muslim community.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/luciana-berger-labour-antisemitism-jeremy-corbyn-election-latest-liberal-democrats-finchley-a9196696.html

We have hopefully moved from this politically but unless you have are in leadership then anti semitism can always creep back into society.

I think, unfortunately, I’ve been slow to pick up this sort of stuff. I guess that’s the point - if you’re not the target group you will be slower to spot the more subtle and insidious stuff- the sly hints, coded references etc - you’re only going to get those if you are a) mixing in antisemitic circles so know what coded references to use or b) are Jewish so experience the sly coded language more often.
The perpetrator can then gaslight - “you’re imagining it - that’s not what I meant etc” 😣

I think the recent Tommy Robinson march could be a good opportunity for both Jews and Muslims to come together to reject all forms of racism and bigotry.There is definitely a horrible increase in Islamophobia from that direction as well as a horrible increase in anti semitism from extreme left and some elements of pro Palestine protest

@Limesodaagain

Tommy Robinson is cynically using Gaza as an opportunity to spread Islamaphobia.

Ironically there has been no evidence of Islamaphobia from the Jewish community which I think is commendable. There actually have been no utterances of Muslim hate by the Israeli government and their enemy is simply Hamas and I think this should be borne in mind.

No, the Israeli government are using 'hamas' as a cover all term to pretend they are not islamophobic. Nobody is buying it though. There seems to be no distinction between Hamas and the normal Palestinian people.

Also here I've seen so many posts suggesting that all Palestinians are Hamas... and even that anyone marching over here in support of Palestinine are supporting Hamas.

This is a bit rich coming from someone who point blank refuses to say Jews and the Israeli government are not all the same.

I can’t say I’ve ever once on MN seen a single person say all Palestinians are Hamas - which thread is this??

I mean I COULD say “What posts? Nothing to do with me I don’t know if that happened” rather than just saying it’s Islamophobia which, if it did happen, or was to happen, it is.

Bit I’m not an Islamophobe so I’m happy to say something is Islamphobic when it is rather than pretending it doesnt exist.

It’s a shame the same courtesy isn’t given to Jewish people. Hypocrite springs to mind.

I was enjoying reading this discussion until I saw this comment, I’m absolutely astounded that you think there have been no instances of hate and stereotyping from the Israeli government.

What do you think Netanyahu meant when he referenced the Amalek?

I also believe the fight to destroy Hamas is being used as cover to justify and legitimise the indiscriminate killing and suffering of the people in Palestine.

On October 7, Netanyahu said the people of Gaza would pay a "huge price", and Israel would turn parts of Gaza "into rubble"

What do you think was meant when all the people in Gaza were referred to as animals, or the other hideous comments from Israeli officials? Or soldiers were chanting there are no innocents in Gaza?

Or most importantly, why the killing has been so indiscriminate?

I’m really quite taken a back.

I do think that unless we are part of a group that is being discriminated against it isn’t always obvious, but these comments are so blatant and well publicised I find it hard to believe that you would believe what you’ve said.

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/israel-rhetoric-palestinians-south-africa-genocide-case_n_65a94997e4b041f1ce65175e

I think a lot of people are completely oblivious to it, simply because Jews are a tiny minority in this country and as Jew-hate takes a different form to more conventional racism that we learn about, it needs reading up on to understand.

Over 20 years ago I read a book by Jon Ronson (who is Jewish) called Them: Adventures with Extremists where he spends some time with various groups with extreme views including an London-based Islamist who raises money for Hamas and Hezbollah (pre 9/11 and he has since been kicked out of the country), a journalist hunting down the Bilderberg Group, David Icke and Aryan Nations. And I was shocked that these very different people with different extreme views all had issues with Jews (except Icke insists lizards, but those around him probably don't). It wasn't something I had even given any thought to.

When Corbyn became Labour leader, a political commentator I rate who is Jewish started talking about the antisemitism in Labour. So I looked into it, spent some time on twitter and what I found was absolutely disgusting. On the surface you had 'coded' stuff like the Young Labour account tweeting 'Free Palestine' at Jewish MPs, or the 'Israel Lobby' controlling Tom Watson and the despicable treatment of Luciana Berger, but you just needed to scratch the surface slightly to find blatant holocaust denial and 'Jews control the world' conspiracies. I felt physically sick reading it so god knows how Jewish people felt. And then I'd come on MN to find people asserting that there was no antisemitism in Labour and it was all being fabricated (by, guess who?) to discredit Corbyn.

But if I hadn't looked into it myself, and been aware of what to look for due to prior reading, I think it would have just been some background news thing that I'd have been aware of with 'one side asserts x while the other side strenuously denies'.

I find it quite worrying that people are wandering into support for the people of Gaza (which is obviously much needed) while being completely oblivious to the antisemitic discourse which surrounds Israel. If you don't know that 'Zionist' has been used as a code word for Jew by antisemites for years, you wouldn't necessarily be alarmed by the demonisation of Zionists on placards and in general discourse about Israel. You can see on MN that a lot of people assumed that Zionist meant 'supporter of Netanyahu' because of the way the word has been used to mean someone despicably evil. Because they didn't know to be wary, and they don't realise what is really going on.

Similarly they wander into the assumption that people have an issue with Israel purely because of the things that Israel has done (which I don't support) and not because Israel is a Jewish state. See chanting support for the Houthis because they 'support Gaza'. They may be surprised that the Houthi slogan includes 'Death to Israel and a curse upon Jews' but they're probably never going to look into it deeply enough to find out. I've also seen on MN the assertion that Hamas are not antisemitic, the holocaust was a European thing and that the Middle East never had any issues with Jews until Israel was created. Which, if you look at the history, is just obviously wrong.

And if you support Gaza, it is very easy to be exposed to these views without realising what is at the root of them. It's a form of grooming, in a way.

I’m really surprised that more hasn’t been done to educate people. In my
opinion there has been a lot of focus on policing and control by our government, and fanning the flames of division by certain media outlets (and government), but less has been done to help people understand the potentially insidious nature of antisemitism that you have outlined here.

Excellent post @noblegiraffe

I've seen it quite a few times in various threads.

Just as not all Jewish people or Israeli citizens are the Israeli government, not all Palestinians or Muslims are Hamas or pro-Hamas. Yet many people struggle to recognise those things.

Well yes the Government and certain media outlets on the right have been focused on division, and certain media outlet on the left have been actively perpetuating the narratives outlined by Giraffe.

But outside the media and government, on social media for instance, there is actually rather a lot of people speaking out and trying to educate on antisemitism, as well as the actual history of Jews in the middle east, not the imagined history that suits an anti-Zionist narrative. But unfortunately these attempts are met with:

ridicule
accusations of lying and other tropes and conspiracy theories such as being paid for by Israel or some shadowy Zionist institutions
accusations of being genocide supporters
antisemitism often coded as a anti-Zionism
outright hate, hostility and belligerence
Slogans used to deny Jewish experience such as 'but Gaza' 'I'm fed up of being called an antisemite' 'can't say anything without being called an antisemite' 'stop playing the antisemite card'

I mean on Mumsnet alone lots of Jewish women have been trying to educate posters on the insidious nature of antisemitism but they're met with all of the above.

So what do you propose we do to "help people understand".

Yep.

I can’t tell you how many times posters just stonewall you when you educate them on antisemitism - it speaks volumes.
Luckily there is an organisation called the International Holocaust Remembrance Alliance - a organisation not in the least bit affiliated with Israel and also not exclusively about Jewish people - which has 35 countries as member organisations who subscribe to their VERY specific definitions of antisemitism. A poster on this very thread recently argued for ages that their country wasn’t a member alliance (they are and no amount of showing actual proof in various forms could convince them). It was SO bizarre. They were literally saying “I can be antisemitic because my country isn’t on that list”, when it was.

I mean WHY wouldn’t you say, when presented this by a Jewish person, “it’s great there’s a clear definition, I hope my country is on there because it means they subscribe to fighting racism, and I’ll learn from these definitions”? Why would you fight against your country being on there, proudly declare antisemitism therefore doesn’t apply to you and in the same breath whine that you’re always accused of being antisemitic?

At least with the far right who walk the streets saying “fuck the Jews”, I know exactly where they stand. The so-called progressive human-loving liberals are the ones I fear more. the stealth racists who won’t ever say it out loud and are cunning and calculated enough to always teeter on the edge but never quite cross the line. To them I say: We see you. I know what you are and you are fooling no one.

@PeasfullPerson

there is a war against Hamas definitely but I was pointing out the issues of the war were not to do with religion but territory and statehood. In WW2 there was a great deal of hostility between Japan and the US but it certainly wasn't a religious war between Buddhism and Christianity, the dominant religion in both cointries.

There wasn't an implication the war is not grim but there has been no statement from Israel to infer religion (at least from an Israeli perspective) is a factor in the conflict.

Certainly there are Jewish people who have tried to educate people about antisemitism - David Baddiel with his book Jews Don't Count. Dave Rich wrote 'Everyday hate: How antisemitism is built into our world and how you can change it'. Rachel Riley has received a huge amount of flak for talking about it.

I've been attempting to call out antisemitism on MN but people aren't listening. The minute you try to talk about antisemitism you get either 'oh, so you support genocide and the murder of children then?' Or 'oh so you think I'm antisemitic because I support Palestine?'.

Over and over. So many Jewish posters have been upset by what is posted here that they have given up attempting to 'help people understand the potentially insidious nature of antisemitism' when people apparently don't give a shit about blatant antisemitism. Or think that antisemitism isn't worthy of discussion because Gaza is the only thing worth talking about. Or think that any antisemitism discussions are Israel taking control of the conversation.

You yourself asked me to reflect on why I spent more time talking about antisemitism in protests than I do talking about the horrendous events in Gaza. And now you're wondering why more people aren't talking about antisemitism? I talk about antisemitism because it is needed. And because very few other people are. And because some of those few are Tommy fucking Robinson using it to bash Muslims, so a more reasonable view is needed to prove that it's not only the far right that care.

There is no shortage of people posting about how terrible Israel's actions are.

The statement about the Amalek was early religious.

@YaMuvva
At least with the far right who walk the streets saying “fuck the Jews”, I know exactly where they stand. The so-called progressive human-loving liberals are the ones I fear more. the stealth racists who won’t ever say it out loud and are cunning and calculated enough to always teeter on the edge but never quite cross the line.

Absolutely 100 fucking percent.

To them I say: We see you. I know what you are and you are fooling no one

And to certain posters (especially long-term posters) who have learned how to use dog-whistles rather than doing an actual explicit antisemitism, and then feign utter shock and anger at the suggestion they might be antisemitic - not only do we see you, but the thousands of lurkers on the CITME board probably do too.

@mids2019 yes, there has been. You just haven't registered it.

The way I see it is that some people are using the war in Gaza as an excuse for antisemitism.

And some people are using antisemitism as an excuse to shut down legitimate criticism of the Israeli government.

This then puts people who have experienced either side of this on the defensive, which makes it harder to act from a place of curiosity, tolerance and understanding.

Please if you can manage it, because I understand it’s not easy, don’t stop talking and trying to educate people about antisemitism.

In among the divisive comments that seek to derail conversations, I am sure there is a lot of misunderstanding and people who are open to listening, who might not even be contributing any words.

The IHRA thing is bizarre - I was told that it was only a draft definition or something on another thread a few months ago.

I watched a video a couple of weeks ago of a very nice young man showing the Cambridge protest encampment, which was all very nice, no posters calling for intifada or anything problematic. Then right at the end there were some people with a microphone talking about 'demands', one of which was to reject the IHRA definition of antisemitism.

I mean, that's a bit of a weird thing for a peace protest to be calling for, isn't it? Nothing to do with supporting the people of Gaza, calling for antisemitism to be redefined, presumably so that you can say the antisemitic things you want to say without being told it's antisemitic. That really shouldn't be a major concern of people who are merely Pro-Palestine. Better to just not say those things, I'd have thought.