Terrible but not surprised - Jewish community under threat

[mids2019]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cx0331xxd7xo

It appears Jews are not safe in the UK at all.

Can we seriously look at the impact of anti semitism now?

The pp was describing people who see things in black and white simplistic ways and I assumed you were responding to that.
The original comment was “Those who shout loudly and can only see things through a lens of good/ bad really do not help. In my view they deepen the rifts with their insistence on understanding things with so little nuance.” is one I agree with and is often in much evidence on here .

@Dulra I think your assumption is possibly wrong - many, many pro Palestine demonstrators actually believe that what Hamas did was righteous given the treatment of peoples in Gaza by Israel. Have been stunned by the black and white perspective many of these (young) people.

It seems impossible to agree that Hamas, and those Palestinians enabling/protecting them may be as equally ‘bad’ as many of the actions/actors of the IDF and Israel; that the Palestinians deserve some empathy for the way they’ve been forced to live over recent decades at the same time as understanding Israel’s rage and heartbreak at the evens of 7/10; no-one seems to consider the role that the UN states, UK included, have had historically in the conflicts of the last 100 years and that we share culpability for this.

Much easier to take a polarised, binary view - and this is what we’re seeing and hearing on the marches and the protests.

Thank you, yes. And my comment was in response to this one:

* If you are pro Israel just come out and say that you think what is happening is justified*

Tried to PM you but it didn't work. I totally agree with you, I didn't see the thread title until after I posted and felt it really wasn't appropriate, so sincere apologies for that.

Thanks for saying that 💐

"This thread should have been a space to express concerns about the dangers facing the Jewish community in the UK but it seems we're not even allowed that"

@Lilacblossom70. Exactly. It's extremely telling, and it makes me feel really sad.

Aah don’t worry .. I’ve felt that . This is a niche group and not representative in my view. Lots of people who are posting are firmly entrenched and are not particularly interested in learning anything new . It’s a bit depressing but I have learnt quite a bit about how social media works and how people who think differently from me think. I’ve learned a lot . Sometimes I’ve reflected on my own views and shifted position- sometimes not. I don’t view this as a space that represents mainstream thinking. I view it as a space that allows me to learn about different perspectives.

Sorry if that doesn’t sound sympathetic. I am very sympathetic to anyone experiencing antisemitism or any racism. I don’t think this is necessarily a “safe space” but … in some ways that’s good because it has exposed the nature of the problem.

Did you actually read my question

I was wondering if there were families who saw what Hamas did and instead of celebrating. They left.

I don’t know where you get the blame from

This.

Yes. I can't tell if people are being disingenuous or have very narrow exposure when they pretend to not know that lots of people think the attack was righteous, justified or outright didn't happen and was done by the idf on it's own citizens.

I also don't think people have lived in middle eastern countries and been exposed to the fact that hating jews is pretty much baked in explicitly in people's socialisation. Even in the holy book of Islam tropes about Jews are there about how they went against god for being money lenders who charged interest. (The Christian fuck up is seen as idolatry by claiming Jesus was of God but it's more approved of to marry a Christian than a Jew because they're not as bad).

It's not being islamophobic to point this out or to point out, as someone who has lived in an arab muslim country, that absolute hatred or major suspicion and dislike at the least of Jews is the norm. Perhaps not discussed in public by the more educated and higher class of society but absolutely rife in the majority of the population. Israel is surrounded by countries that want to destroy it and even there palestinians are used as a smokescreen for what is really baked in hatred towards Jews.

Even in Sinai where I have felt safer than anywhere I've been in the world and have always been warmly welcomed, well before recent events, I've seen kids throw stones at Jewish visitors. Children! Hence why I say baked into socialisation and some of these children have never attended a school so this is primary socialisation. When you're embedded into an arab community and trusted people talk more freely so you get to hear real attitudes and beliefs about various topics including what they think of Jews, homosexuals and the idea that a woman can be raped. Men you've known for years, love and think are ace chilled people will suddenly really shock you with their level of contempt.

Ironically I feel like I'm going to be attacked for Islamophobia now despite having spent a running total of about 9 years of my adult life living in a Muslim country and very happy living with Muslims in arab cultures.

I just don't think people aware of what they're talking about in terms of how Jews are viewed and dehumanised in that part of the world. I don't think people can understand how unsurprising it is that Palestinians did the things they did on October 7th and how many people cheered them on - like 'normal' people.

I don't think they understand what a knife edge Jews live on in the middle east or that a large part of the Israeli Jewish population was people thrown out of surrounding Middle Eastern countries - like literally long before Gaza the Jewish communities who had lived peacefully alongside Muslim fellow citizens were driven out following ideology not at all dissimilar to that of the Nazis.

This denial that Jewish people are not and have not always been a persecuted people with the same tropes and propaganda following them for centuries and that events of October 7th are not representative of what at least half of the people in the surrounding nations would like to see happen on mass is just naive or disingenuous.

Sorry long and probably repetitive.

@BusyMummy001 what percentage of protestors do think actually support October 7th? What evidence is there to support this? And what action do you think should be taken to identify these supporters and deal with them?

@swallowedAfly brilliant post.

I'm really sorry you have experienced all of that. Though I have no doubt that many Palestinians can relate to what you said and have experienced the same hatred and dehumanisation.

None of the hatred on either side justifies any of the violence from either side.

"When you're embedded into an arab community and trusted people talk more freely so you get to hear real attitudes and beliefs about various topics including what they think of Jews, homosexuals and the idea that a woman can be raped. Men you've known for years, love and think are ace chilled people will suddenly really shock you with their level of contempt."

This comment us certainly islamophobic. Sadly, I can assure you that embedded male level of contempt towards women is not limited to any race or religion.

@swallowedAfly

“Even in the holy book of Islam tropes about Jews are there about how they went against god for being money lenders who charged interest. (The Christian fuck up is seen as idolatry by claiming Jesus was of God but it's more approved of to marry a Christian than a Jew because they're not as bad).

When you're embedded into an arab community and trusted people talk more freely so you get to hear real attitudes and beliefs about various topics including what they think of Jews, homosexuals and the idea that a woman can be raped.”

As a Muslim, I find offence with your post specifically these two parts.

Although you would not realise it, it is Islamophobic.

The language you used to describe the Quran is offensive.

What you are essentially doing is creating hatred towards Islam among Jewish people as well as scaremongering. You’re allowing others to believe something about Islam that simply isn’t true. Islam isn’t about what you have described and your post shows a lot of ignorance.

There are many religions that are against homosexuality, not just Islam.

Rape is a grave sin in Islam and is never acceptable or encouraged. Of course, like in all religions, you have some that go rogue but that shouldn’t be used to tar everyone with the same brush as you well know.

“Islam requires Muslims to respect people of all faiths and this clearly includes followers of Judaism.
Jews are regarded as one of the groups of people described as ‘People of the Book’. This is a title given to two groups of people; the Jews and the Christians, both of which were given guidelines directly by their founders, Moses(as)and Jesus(as) respectively.
Furthermore Islam does not condemn any individual since everyone has an equal opportunity to earn God’s pleasure. So Jews also have the same opportunity and have been respected in Islam and Islamic communities.”

In conclusion, your post is insulting and Islamophobic. If you are unable to recognise this, you should educate yourself as residing in an Arab nation does not absolve you of Islamophobia.

@stomachamelon if you agree that their post is a brilliant post, I would also encourage you to educate yourself on Islam before supporting something that simply isn’t true.

I don't think it is helpful to discussions if someone's personal experience is shut down because other posters don't like what that experience is.

Yeah like you've never said anything offensive about the Torah.

@malengring where on earth have I said anything offensive against the Torah?

The language you used to describe the Quran is offensive.

The Quran is a book, not a person. People can describe it or talk about it or criticise it however the heck they like.

You had a whole thread about it.

@malengring I asked a question about it and I also said I didn't believe what was in the video to be true. That's not the same as saying something offensive. I asked a question. You know something you do when you try learn about something that you don't know about? But either way if I was offensive by asking a question I apologise.

That doesn't take away from the fact that I and many others find the other post offensive.

Well the thread was deleted so clearly not everyone bought they whole head-tilty faux-innocent "I'm just asking a question" thing.

Anyway, my point is stones and glass houses and all that.

I don't think it is helpful to discussions if someone's personal experience is shut down

I don't think it is helpful to discussions if one person's experience is being used to generalise about billions of people particular when it is in such a negative light.

I could come on here and talk frankly about my experience with Israelis I have worked and socialised with and claim that all Israelis are like that and think and act the same as them and I'd be flamed for it and no doubt my post deleted because I would be generalising and suggesting all Israelis think and act like those I know. It is not right and it is not fair and very telling the posters that have appeared here to support what was said.

@swallowedAfly I'm sorry that you've had those experiences; as we're all aware, people can be very unpleasant and that unpleasantness can occur in any society.

There do seem to be some misunderstandings in your post though, in relation to how Islam views Judaism and Christianity. Islam, Christianity and Judaism are closely linked, and all people who believe in those faiths are considered People of the Book. Islam also does not condone rape, or hatred of others, or disrespect of secular laws and governments. Like many faiths, there are people who misinterpret, consciously or unconsciously, what is taught.

I am sorry that that has been your experience of Islam, and I hope that you can have more positive experiences in future.