Terrible but not surprised - Jewish community under threat

[mids2019]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cx0331xxd7xo

It appears Jews are not safe in the UK at all.

Can we seriously look at the impact of anti semitism now?

Nobody is shutting down or denying anyones experience. But to use a personal experience in order to judge an entire nationality or race or religion is prejudicial in itself. If you can't see that, that is also problematic.

Ok. So it's ok to do the same about the Torah then?
I am an atheist and taught RE for 20 years. I taught my pupils that these books are holy to the believers as they convey the words of God and to show respect, even if you do not believe a word of it. I feel you missed that lesson.

Nobody is shutting down or denying anyones experience. But to use a personal experience in order to judge an entire nationality or race or religion is prejudicial in itself. If you can't see that, that is also problematic.

Are you saying there isn't an issue with antisemitisim and attitudes towards Jewish people in many parts of the Middle East? Is having any sort of a discussion around it problematic?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitism_in_the_Arab_world

I absolutely did NOT say that! Why would you take my words and twist them like that? It is absolutely NOT OK to generalise a people, whichever people they may be.

So it's ok to do the same about the Torah then?

I mean obviously it is? Ditto the Bible, the Bhagavad Gita, and any other 'holy' book you care to mention. They can all be criticised and scrutinised. People are and should be free to say whatever they like about any of them. They're books. I'm so glad I wasn't one of your pupils, being taught that any kind of scrutiny of a book demonstrates a lack of 'respect'. Just LOL.

What an utterly bizarre question. Do you genuinely think this is some kind of gotcha and I was going to reply 'oh no, of course you can't criticise the Torah, that's totally different'?

I'm not Jewish, btw, as you seem to be assuming.

They can all be criticised and scrutinised. People are and should be free to say whatever they like about any of them. They're books.
But that's not what the poster did. They used the holy book of Islam to further demonstrate how much Muslims hate Jews.

Even in the holy book of Islam tropes about Jews are there about how they went against god for being money lenders who charged interest. (The Christian fuck up is seen as idolatry by claiming Jesus was of God but it's more approved of to marry a Christian than a Jew because they're not as bad).

Clearly, as I'm sure you know perfectly well, I was responding to Auvergne's question 'is it OK to do the same to the Torah?' which was a response to my point 'People can describe it or talk about it or criticise it [a book] however the heck they like' which was itself a response to a PP's comment 'The language you used to describe the Quran [i.e. a book] is offensive.'

I'm afraid that I really, really, really don't care if 'language used to describe [a book] is 'offensive'. If you have an issue with something a PP said, take it up with them directly.

They can all be criticised and scrutinised. People are and should be free to say whatever they like about any of them.
You believe insulting people's beliefs by saying whatever you like about any of their holy (yes holy) books is acceptable? For example, if someone said they are a load of sh*te. In your opinion, that's ok? There is a difference between debating respectfully and being insulting.
I'm so glad I wasn't one of your pupils, being taught that any kind of scrutiny of a book demonstrates a lack of 'respect'. Just LOL.
Teaching RE is about teaching about the various faiths, their beliefs, how they worship and so on. I taught primary school children. Scrutinising beliefs was not in the curriculum and certainly not my job.
I think you would have liked my lessons. Ofsted rated them outstanding.
What an utterly bizarre question
I always told my pupils to ask questions. That is how you learn.
Do you genuinely think this is some kind of gotcha
I don't play games. I leave that to children.
I'm not Jewish, btw, as you seem to be assuming
Funny how both of us are making assumptions.

You appear to dislike your post being scrutinised...

This is getting wildly off topic, so I'll leave you to your fulminations. Cheerio! Have a lovely evening!

This is getting wildly off topic, so I'll leave you to your fulminations. Cheerio! Have a lovely evening!

In relation to scrutiny and discussion of religious texts...

People should feel free and welcome to read, discuss, ask questions about and disagree with things, including religious texts. What people should also do, though, is respect that some texts have special significance to others, whether that is religious texts or secular documents of great importance (eg the US Constitution). We should all respect that significance and try to avoid mocking, misrepresentation/deliberate misinterpretation, etc., just as we would hope others would do with things important to us.

This can be especially important if the people potentially affected are vulnerable, discriminated against, etc. Misrepresentations of texts can be used to encourage distrust, fear and hatred towards groups.

Well said.

Well said @Scirocco

I agree that that is the polite approach @Scirocco but I also think satire and mockery are important elements of free speech and shouldn’t be banned.

I also think sometimes generalisations are essential for being able to talk about trends or phenomena. If there is a cultural issue with anti-semitism in some middle-eastern cultures, we have to be able to say so.

At no point did I suggest things should be banned.

People are free to be insulting of things. Other people are free to tell them that they are being offensive.

In general terms, if we all try to treat others how we would want to be treated, there'd be a lot less grief in the world.

I am talking about a cultural and social phenomena and an interpretation of Islam that you may well not be in alignment with. Have you lived in any arab Muslim nations? I actually haven't said anything about what Islam means or how people should interpret Islam.

All religions critique other religions and have elitist views about their own faith. Why would Muslims be immune to that? And yes all cultures and religions have misogyny but few areas of the world are governed and educated by religious leaders and a narrow interpretation of religious texts.

I am predominantly talking about culture and education within specific nations not some ultimate truth of what a religion is or how it is interpreted in different geographical locations.

Misrepresentations of texts can be used to encourage distrust, fear and hatred towards groups

Well exactly my point! In the case I was discussing seeds in the Koran are misinterpreted or not tempered by wider values taught in the text and are used to encourage distrust, fear and hatred towards Jews.

I am discussing my experience in specific nations which unsurprisingly are unlikely to match the experiences of someone on the other side of the world just because they share the same basis of their religion. Different cultures and sociopolitical systems interpret things differently. Including religious texts. For example I see nothing in the life and teachings of Jesus that points to subjugating women or banning people's personal choices but that doesn't mean that right wing conservative Christians in America don't interpret the New Testament and use it to justify just that.

It is interesting to see though that an observation about a common regional attitude towards certain groups has caused more outrage and offense than people literally planning to murder Jews in England.

Once more explicitly: I'm not saying that all Muslims hate Jews. I am saying that I have witnessed a widespread hate towards Jews in parts of the Middle East and North Africa. Bear in mind many people there are very selective about which bits of their mother religion they observe or care about and are more culturally Muslim than religiously so. Much like a lot of Jews see themselves as ethnically Jewish but lead secular lives.

If you live in a country which is very monoreligious and controlling though you have to be seen to be going to mosque on a Friday and fasting in public and calling yourself a Muslim even if it never touches your conscience or how you treat people or what you drink, smoke or screw in private.

When I talk about Muslims in the context I have I'm talking about cultural Muslims not devout Muslims trying to take a broad view of the wider teachings and values of their religion. If you're comparing what I say about these things with your own experience of being a voluntarily devout follower of Islam in a nation that doesn't compel you and has a very different culture and broader education and wider exposure to diversity then you are comparing apples and oranges and are bound to be offended.

I really wish you'd stop. Your posts are completely Islamophobic, and the fact that you keep forcing the issue, and you're so confident in your belief, is really rather unsettling.

So have you lived in any arab muslim countries? And would you like to explain how talking about a cultural phenomena is Islamophobic?

By the way you don't need to be sorry for my experiences and they weren't traumatic or anything. Not sure why you said that.

I lived years in the culture and will move back there once free to do so and spend a good few months a year there even now.

I'm an anthropologist originally hence going to live there in the first place to do fieldwork. Cultural differences are par for the course and I understand the massive impact culture and socialisation has on people. I also clearly love living in an arab country and a ton of things about the culture and character of the people on the whole or I wouldn't spend so much time in that region and have invested there.

I sat and observed a houthi missile land in the sea in the gulf of aqaba this year and we had another exploded in mid air that was so loud that everyone assumed a gas cylinder had gone off outside their house wherever they were in town.

On the other hand you couldn't pay me to live in Israel - I don't like it there or feel comfortable for my own reasons - there are many countries I don't like being in including this one.

I'm sure plenty of Palestinians will have felt dehumanised and hated in Israel I also have Palestinian friends including Gazans who have shared their experiences and the way they shaped them with me.

I was talking about the pretence that there isn't hatred towards Jews in the Middle East not that Israel has no blood on their hands.

This is a region and these are cultures that I have real experience of. This isn't about you or 'all' muslims. It is about a region. Do you think that Iran is some random outlier with it's parliament standing up and cheering at Oct 7th and chanting death to Israel, death to Jews? I just don't get the denial

So we've moved on to stereotyping all Muslims, great.....