This is the reality of what Israel is doing (part 3)

[Eyesopenwideawake]

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/apr/15/babies-children-gaza-famine

Continuation of the previous thread.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/conflict-in-the-middle-east/5018751-this-is-the-reality-of-what-israel-is-doing-part-2?page=39&reply=134623626

I think the world is probably a safer place if Israel continues to exist as a state. That is what they are fighting for, at one level, after October 7th.

I am deeply suspicious of Netanyahu at the same time. of course I don't agree with all the things he has done.

But I think the current conflict was deliberately precipitated and some sort of war was then almost inevitable etc etc

No I don't think Hamas made the right choice; do you really think Hamas want a 2 state solution? Don't they want to be free from the river to the sea etc etc? It seems that both sides have walked away from a 2 state solution in the past, even though it might be the best option for peace.

I don't think that producing pictures of mutilated bodies means you win an argument on here. If people want to look at those pictures, then it is a free world, go ahead.

But, unless you are a complete pacificist etc etc then a war situation means there will be death, we know that, so there is just no point producing the pictures of dead bodies in a " See I am right " sort of way.

If the state of Israel were to fall (which is what Hamas would probably really like) thenit is most likely there would be a great deal more bloodshed and disruption across that region. No one really seems to have a plan on how to shore things up.

@Finallyloggedin I think the situation before October 7th was better than the situation after.

@Gunnersforthecup thats not a proper answer to my email, it’s a childlike thing to say. Please try harder.

Also, in your message to @PeasfullPerson you say that the the world is safer. Safer for who, exactly?

Furthermore you mention the links to pictures of the children being mutilated and massacred in Gaza. I think you don’t want to look at the pictures as you know they will upset you, which I would respect if you were against the idf being allowed to commit these atrocities, but you are in support of them so you should be looking at the aftermath. It’s easy to justify all kinds of things from a theoretical distance. You should be looking at what you are justifying.

My response to you says exactly what I think. The situation was very concerning before October 7th but now it is a lot worse, as there is a war happening.

I think that if we have more widespread armed conflict in the world, then it will a much more dangerous place for many many people. It's likely that the disintegration of Israel as a state would be awful for many people in the Middle East and Europe.

Re the pictures, see my previous response. We know that war causes these things, full stop.

Sorry I'm not sure where this should go, but this a video of a Palestinian woman with Israeli citizenship being arrested reportedly because of social media posts expressing sympathy with Gaza.

Democracy my foot. And what's with the blindfold? Israel loves a bit of sensory deprivation. So fucked up. She seems terrified. I hope she's not abused like other Palestinians in Israeli detention are.

https://www.instagram.com/reel/C7jfKvvM2mI/?igsh=eXk3czk2cDFoYzB5

No I don't think Hamas made the right choice; do you really think Hamas want a 2 state solution
They do as much as the Israeli government does. Do you remember when Netanyahu held the map of Israel without Gaza and the West Bank? That's how much they want it.
Don't they want to be free from the river to the sea etc etc?
I believe this as also been used by Netanyahu.
It seems that both sides have walked away from a 2 state solution in the past,
They have. The only time this could have been achieved Yitzhak Rabin was assassinated by an Israeli.
I don't think that producing pictures of mutilated bodies means you win an argument on here. If people want to look at those pictures, then it is a free world, go ahead.
This is not about winning an argument. It's about the reality of what is happening. Bearing witness is extremely important that is why no international press in allowed in Gaza and journalists killed. Netanyahu does not want witnesses to the slaughter.
But, unless you are a complete pacificist etc etc then a war situation means there will be death, we know that, so there is just no point producing the pictures of dead bodies in a " See I am right " sort of way.
Of course, in war, there will be death but this is not a war. Please look up the definition of war.
If the state of Israel were to fall (which is what Hamas would probably really like) then it is most likely there would be a great deal more bloodshed and disruption across that region. No one really seems to have a plan on how to shore things up.
Israel won't fall because the USA won't let that happen.

So you trust that Netanyahu wants peace?

And you believe that the action taken was the only way to ensure the existence
of Israel? You don’t see another way?

I don’t think posting pictures is about winning an argument, it’s about people understanding the true human cost of what is happening. It is easy to condone it when you can’t see the horror with your own eyes, or inhale the stench of death and disease, or feel the physical and psychological impact of starvation. If you had to stand next to those children who burned to death you might feel differently. I don’t think that people should accept this man made suffering, they should push for a better way. A reluctance to view the reality of what death and life is like for these people is a form of denial. These people aren’t pawns on a board, they are real people.

Well what a surprise! The simple act of expressing empathy must make you dangerous!

Senior Israeli advisor expects conflict in Gaza to last until the end of 2024

No idea how Palestinians are meant to survive another six months of this 😔

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c844g02nl18o

Why blindfold and ziptie someone when arresting them?

Because you can. Because it is frightening and humiliating. Because you choose to.

The act of expressing empathy for the other side in war, or simply being regarded as an "alien" has been seen as a danger in the past.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/history/ww2peopleswar/timeline/factfiles/nonflash/a6651858.shtml#:~:text=Thousands%20of%20Germans%2C%20Austrians%20and,up%20in%20World%20War%20One.

I have been wondering how we would treat "aliens" in the UK if we did end up at war, we are a more cosmopolitan society now than we were 80 years ago.

@Gunnersforthecup
Hamas does not pose an existential threat to Israel. This war is not necessary so your claim that killing 35,000Palestinians will save more lives in the event of further Hamas attacks on Israel is without foundation.

The Hamas attacks on 7/10 occurred against a back drop of never to be repeated defence and intelligence failures. This heinous terrorist attack led to the death of 1200 people as well as the taking of hostages . In the preceding decades, despite launching thousands of rockets, terrorist deaths were a fraction of deaths caused by road traffic accidents.It is widely accepted amongst US military analysts and privately by former IDF military analysts that Hamas does not have the organisational ability to repeat the 7/10 attacks. To claim that Hamas can militarily destroy the state of Israel is propaganda.

Carrying out attacks in a dense urban area is inevitably going to lead to high levels of civilian casualties. You have said this yourself .

From todays New York Times , I quote weapons expert Wes Bryant who says “It indicates continued targeting negligence — either an unwillingness or inability to effectively safeguard civilians. When you use a weapon that’s intended as precision and low collateral damage in an area where civilians are saturated, it really negates that intended use.”

@Kindatired

"Hamas does not pose an existential threat to Israel. "

It has been widely reported that Israelis did perceive October 7th as an existential threat. They perceive that they are in a very vulnerable position, (the threat is not just from Hamas, but also Hezbollah / Houthis/ Iran).

"your claim that killing 35,000 Palestinians will save more lives in the event of further Hamas attacks on Israel" I didn't say that.

I said

"I think the world is probably a safer place if Israel continues to exist as a state."

and

"I think that if we have more widespread armed conflict in the world, then it will a much more dangerous place for many many people. It's likely that the disintegration of Israel as a state would be awful for many people in the Middle East and Europe."

But of course I would much rather October 7th and the aftermath had not happened at all.

The comment about being surprised was sarcasm, in case that wasn’t clear.

If someone conflates showing empathy for innocent civilians with empathy for the ‘other side’

and views this as dangerous,

then this could help explain why people might be discouraged from watching actual footage of what is happening in Gaza, or protesting,

because if the reality of the suffering was widely shared and as a result empathy for innocent civilians spread through a population,

then this would make it harder for people within that population to shrug their shoulders and agree that well these things do happen in war.

Which in turn makes it more difficult for anyone in power who wants to support (or take) action that causes mass suffering to innocent civilians.

So who benefits from hiding the reality?

And is it Ok that a woman has this happen to her for simply expressing empathy? Since when is expressing empathy more dangerous than bombing and starving children? It’s not really about being dangerous is it, it’s about control.

My point was that expressing enthusiasm for the other side is a bit of a risk when the country you live in is at war.

Empathy is always good of course

I’ve also seen the video of the woman getting arrested, it’s terrifying.

So Israel is really at the stage of arresting and blindfolding someone for showing sympathy for beheaded children.

https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1795921784178446440.html

Made me cry 😥, the medical staff both Palestinian and everyone coming from around the World are amazing and a testament to humanity ❤

Empathy and enthusiasm are not the same. That would be an entirely different discussion.

But I appreciate the discussion on the dangers of expressing empathy for innocent civilians, both for those who express it, and those who wish to control the narrative by hiding reality.

In the Guardian this evening.

Stacey Gilbert, a US senior military advisor who was worked in the same department for twenty years has resigned in response to the publication of a report that absolves Israel of blocking aid. She says the subject matter experts, who were not involved in the final edit of the report, believe Israel is blocking aid.

Alexander Smith, a contractor for USAid was preparing to give a talk on maternal and child mortality. He was given the option of dismissal or resigning, he resigned.

“There is consensus among the humanitarian community on that. It is absolutely the opinion of the humanitarian subject matter experts in the state department, and not just in my bureau – people who look at this from the intelligence community and from other bureaus. I would be very hard pressed to think of anyone who has said [Israeli obstruction] is not an issue,” Gilbert said. “That’s why I object to that report saying that Israel is not blocking humanitarian assistance. That is patently false.”

Gilbert was one of two US officials to resign this week over the Biden administration’s Gaza policy. Alexander Smith, a contractor for the US Agency for International Development (USAid), who resigned on Monday, said he was given a choice between resignation and dismissal after preparing a presentation on maternal and child mortality among Palestinians, which was cancelled at the last minute by USAid leadership last week.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/article/2024/may/30/stacy-gilbert-us-state-department-israel-gaza-aid

Chilling and heinous. But we should be used to the US behaving like depraved psychopaths. They always have when it comes to foreign policy where their interests lie.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-first-time-in-a-year-poll-shows-netanyahu-preferred-to-gantz-as-prime-minister/

poll shows Netanyahu preferred to Gantz as prime minister

God help us

Over 1 in 3 people responding to the survey actively support Netanyahu to the extent of choosing him for the role.

That slightly undermines the argument that very few people support what he and his government are doing to Palestine and to Palestinians.

This is a man who has vowed to continue until "Total Victory". Who has encouraged and used language that is dehumanising and calling for the eradication of Palestinians. Who invokes references to the Amalek in his speeches to justify killing innocent people.

And over 1 in 3 respondents would choose him again.

I feel sick.