This is the reality of what Israel is doing (part 3)

[Eyesopenwideawake]

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/apr/15/babies-children-gaza-famine

Continuation of the previous thread.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/conflict-in-the-middle-east/5018751-this-is-the-reality-of-what-israel-is-doing-part-2?page=39&reply=134623626

No, it just meant that I didn't pick up on that detail of your hypothetical scenario.

Pink washing:

Thousands of LGBTQ+ Americans are denouncing Israel’s military offense in Gaza as an act of genocide and calling for a permanent cease-fire by signing online petitions, sending email campaigns and protesting at events in Washington and New York. They want national organizations that mobilize on LGBTQ+ civil rights to do the same — but so far, these organizations have not taken a clear public stance.
Queer advocates calling for a cease-fire say LGBTQ+ groups have a responsibility to denounce the use of “pinkwashing,” or what they allege as the Israeli government’s attempts to hide human rights violations behind a purportedly pro-LGBTQ+ image.

https://19thnews.org/2024/03/lgbtq-americans-gaza-israel-protests/

Sorry, whoever else it was's hypothetical scenario.

I'm not Israeli or Jewish myself, by the way.

The massacre in Radha was seen by some Israelis as the best way of celebrating a religious festival.

Hope someone sends that to the ICJ

Israeli massacre of Tantura
https://www.instagram.com/p/C7Xf1ADtrNL/?igsh=djZ3Y2c0cnhkNHAx

@Gunnersforthecup by your logic (that all Israel’s war crimes are justified as it’s a war), everything Hamas did on October 7th was also justified as it was already a war.

To be clear, this is not what I believe, but this is the logical conclusion of what you are saying.

Well, my impression was that there were low-key skirmishes before October 7th. After this provocation, Israel went on to launch a war.

But you know this really, I think.

Also, I did not say that absolutely everything Israel does is justified because it is at war. I certainly don't think Netanyahu and co are perfect, though I do understand why they wanted to take action against Hamas.

But at the same time, I don't see the point of posting up pictures of injured people etc, because that inevitably does happen in war. Pictures of corpses do not make an argument.

In fact, it suggests that the posters doing that don't have a decent argument, so they are relying on a sort of visual battery.

A poster on a parenting forum, equivocating about the circumstances in which it would be acceptable to bomb a nursery.

Fuck this planet, I want to get off.

I was only answering someone else's question; someone very very keen to talk about bombing nurseries.

It really wasn't my idea to go down that particular rabbit hole.

@Gunnersforthecup presumably the intention behind the question was to try to find the point at which you would concede that the Israeli offensive in Gaza had crossed a line.

Evidently, the bombing of babies - hypothetical ones in nurseries or real ones asleep in displacent camps - is not a red line for you.

Yes, that’s true, I saw the post.

It (the nursery) was used as an example which would explain a point especially clearly.

These Conflict in the Middle East threads are about extraordinary and terrible things happening, with some posters with links to both sides.

The threads are not parenting forum subjects as such apart from despair over what is happening to children on either side.
The example of the nursery was perfectly valid imo and the context that it was entirely hypothetical and not in this war was absolutely clear.

Sorry, that was explaining to Notoutloud
20:05

@Gunnersforthecup

If two Hamas leaders were hiding under a nursery in Tel Aviv would it be justified to drop a 2000lb bomb on it?

see reply of 13:45

@ScrollingLeaves it is totally disingenuous to claim that the question was a hypothetical one, when the reality is that babies are literally being bombed to death - to pieces - and the pro-Iraeli stance is that this is legitimate collateral damage.

It is similarly disingenuous to distance this thread from Mumsnet. This isn't Twitter or Reddit. This site exists primarily as a space for parents, so yes, I find it particularly objectionable to see these morally vacuous arguments made here.

I

Not morally vacuous. Thanks.

You don't need to be insulting, it doesn't help your argument, you know.

I think we’ve got crossed wires, and am not here to fight with you.

The poster who posed the question was of course doing so in the hope of making clear that what is happening to Palestinian civilians and their children is not morally acceptable.

This is what Haaretz (Israeli) said about it.
I did not know how to include your image but have added a screenshot.

"Mouthpieces identified with the Netanyahu government celebrated the civilians' deaths in Rafah in a series of beastly posts on social media. After nearly eight months of war, it appears that Hamas' Gaza leader Yahya Sinwar's grand plan is proceeding as planned – Jewish Hamasniks are slowly sprouting up" – Amos Harel

My preferred response would be to vacate the nursery and send in armed police or soldiers to arrest the evil gits.

FWIW, I also support the arrest warrant for Netanyahu. He had a number of options the day after Oct 7th and he has consistently chosen the bloodiest ones.

A fair response.

A Jewish Anerican journalist has recently observed that Saudi Arabia puts extremists in prison whereas Israel puts them in government. Presumably referring to both the Netanyahu and the Hamas administrations

@Gunnersforthecup up thread you talk about weighing up the loss of life and whether it’s Ok to bomb civilian areas.

Do you therefore believe that the actions of the Israeli government, which involves killing Palestinian civilians while also going after Hamas, and is causing upset around the world, are making the world a safer place?

Do you believe Hamas made the right choice when they killed Israeli civilians in order to highlight the cause of the Palestinian people, because this may result in a two state solution and long term peace?

I don’t agree with any of these actions, it is a devils advocate question.

You think that people should stop sharing images of the reality of what happens in war because it doesn’t help. What are your thoughts on the role of distance and dehumanisation as factors that have allowed humans to commit atrocities against each other?

@Gunnersforthecup you really think that everything which happened up to October 7th can be summed up as “low key skirmishes” ???

Here is an article from September last year, published by an Israeli news site, about bombs IDF had used https://www.972mag.com/armed-drones-automated-killing-palestinians/

Pertinent point about the use of automated drones: “The Israeli army has been using armed drones for decades to carry out, among other things, extrajudicial executions. But until last year, it was officially forbidden to publish this basic fact in the Israeli media; only on July 20, 2022, did the Israeli military censor change its policy. The longstanding media ban helped to stifle an informed public debate in Israel on the morality of these drones, even as such lively discussions were happening elsewhere in the world, especially around their use by the U.S. military. “

This is just one example of thousands upon thousands.

@DomPom47 said slightly upthread about an average of one Palestinian child being killed each week by the Israeli military.

Even before October 7th, 2023 was the deadliest year in record in the West Bank (where, as you know, hamas aren’t in power, so this can’t be connected to hamas).

See this link from the Jewish Voice for Peace on some of the violence against Palestinians just in the short run up to October tugs https://www.jewishvoiceforpeace.org/2023/11/24/countdown-to-genocide/

The brutality of the Israeli occupation is well documented , you don’t have to look far for it. They have been killing Palestinians without consequence for a very long time. Also thousands of Palestinians are taken hostage for years at a time with no reason given. Including many children.

It is my opinion that all killing and hostage taking is wrong, but you seem to think that killing of thousands upon thousands of innocent Palestinians is somehow justified by the events of October 7th, yet that killing that happened on October 7th is not justified by the killing of thousands upon thousands of Palestinians prior to that.

You can’t have it both ways, either it is all wrong or it is all acceptable.