To think that the blame lies with Hamas and Israel deserves our support

[measuringmylifeincoffeespoons]

Of course, the deaths of the aid workers recently is a terrible tragedy and it is entirely right that Israel is investigating why it happened and holding members of the IDF responsible.

However, the criticism of Israel seems to miss a fundamentally important point which is that Israel is engaged in military operations in Gaza for one reason only: the barbaric terrorist attacks that were committed by Hamas on 7 October and their continued imprisonment of Israel citizens as hostages.

Of course, the deaths of the aid workers is a tragedy. Every civilian death that occurs in a war is a tragedy. But the reality is that that is what happens in a war, and Hamas is responsible for the fact that there is a war.

The war can be ended, and billions of dollars of aid can be released into Gaza, very simply. Hamas simply needs to lay down its arms and release the Israeli citizens that it has taken hostage and continues to keep imprisoned.

Unless and until Hamas do that, the state of Israel deserves our continuing support in its battle against a brutal terrorist organisation that has kidnapped the innocent civilians of a democratic state.

the Isreali government is who is blocking journalist from reporting. The Isreali.government is not allowing journalists to investigate and verify the claims of the IDF and yet you believe them without question but are asking other posters for evidence. Why if it's so clear cut would they not let the evidence be verified please?

Military experts from several countries have confirmed that the civilian casualties are completely of proportion with normal military strategy. You cannot simply keep brushing over the scale of brutality they are inflicting and calling it 'war'. Sniping small children is not warfare. Starving children isn't warfare. You're also implying Israel doesn't want or intend to do these things when the only 'evidence' we are getting from IDF soldiers is that they're absolutely gleeful about it.

Just in terms of numbers - 70,000 UK civilians were killed during the whole of World War 2. The number of deaths is now nearly the same as the entirety of UK civilian deaths relating to the Blitz. Given the size and population of Palestine, that's a truly vast number.

But of course it is the only one in which Jews are fighting and defending themselves as and on behalf of Jews

that is such a narrow view. Allies and people who consider themselves friends of Israel and the Jewish people can only do that if they offer unreserved support regardless of their actions?

No, that’s not how it works regardless of history on either side. Governments should be able to reflect on their actions without invoking emotion and grudges, Israel isn’t doing that, in fact to the point that their rage and revenge is being dished out without reservation or calculation.

There has been zero effort since the November ceasefire to build on that. Israel haven’t tried to ensure that there are safe routes out of Gaza when they absolutely could and used IDF resources to oversee it. Of course there probably would be Hamas members escaping under the cover of being a civilian. But as keeps be said, that’s what happens in war isn’t it?

The bubble has burst finally.

No it was the Palestinian mandate that existed for a short period governed by the British after the fall of the Ottoman Empire prior to 1948. So seems unlikely that was where that poster thought Tel Aviv was.

Anyway, my point was how utterly unlikely that story was. Not that Palestine never existed as a country (although it didn’t) nor for the avoidance of doubt any opposition to a two state solution.

And why are Palestinians being brutalised in the West Bank then? If this is only happening in Gaza because of Hamas?

@destroyess

So was your reference to Palestine to do with your beliefs or was it that you were just crap at geography like you originally claimed?

But with stolen land. They are declared a sovereign state but it's on stolen land, think on the UK situation with N.I, the IRA responded with terror which the rest of the world, in particular America, helped resolve as it was stolen land and people were being treated less than. But Hamas is seen as flat out terrorist and it's all very hypocritical but the world chooses who to support in these situations on how it suits them, it all like a game. I'm in no way supporting terrorism or terrorist attacks but I'm trying to state that it's NEVER black and white. So no Hamas should never have committed those attacks but there has been much leading up to it in the years before, yes Israel wants their people back but committing genocide in their name is not the way. And yes it is genocide, they are targeting civilians in areas where they told them were safe and Hamas are using innocent civilians as cover. There is no good guy here on either side and as usual the innocent suffer. I support neither Hamas or Israel but the innocent stuck in the middle

Israel have a strategy to mitigate the impact on civilians. But the reality is that civilians get killed in a war. That has always happened. It will always happen. It does not mean that Israel,is breaking international humanitarian law. The killing of aid workers is tragic and deplorable. But you cannot extrapolate from that to conclude that Israel's actions in responding to the terrorist attacks of 7 April are illegal.

Do you think the UN lie when they call it genocide? Or the International Courts of Justice?

Nobody's supporting Hamas.

The problem is Israel is treating every Palestinian like a terrorist. Their response has been hugely disproportional.

The whole World looked on with horror at what happened to Israeli's on that awful day but we are not prepared to quietly watch on while thousands of innocent women and children are starved and killed.

Imagine if, in the days after 9-11, the US had all but flattened Afghanistan, just so they could 'be sure' they got some of Al-Qaeda.

Palestine is not Hamas.

@Annettekurtin “Not that Palestine never existed as a country (although it didn’t)”

Stop with the double standards. If it applies to one group, it applies to the other too.

Israel exists. Palestine exists.

Israel has the right to defend itself. Palestine has the right to defend itself.

When you say that this only applies to Israel, we get to where we are now - 34,000 men, women & children killed.

Two wrongs don't make a right. Simple.

You are mistaking actions for causation. It's like a child saying "he made me do it" when he's punched a small child and pushed him downstairs in retaliation for a swipe by the small child. Yes, I assume Israel would not be in Gaza but for what Hamas did. That does not automatically make Hamas responsible for every decision that Israel takes. You are forgetting that there has already been a finding that Israel's actions could amount to genocide.

"That is what happens in war" is such a lazy trope. No, Hamas is not responsible for the sniper targeting a 4 year old child, or for the soldiers killing a little girl in a car full of the dead bodies of her family. It is not responsible for drones targeting three aid cars in succession. It is not responsible for mass starvation. It is not responsible for the fact that Israel is breaking established rules of engagement every day. Those are decisions that Netanyahu and others are taking wholly independently of any action that Hamas has taken.

Because this thread is about the current conflict. Goodness I know about the other wars, donate to charity for those victims and have family who do charity work in dangerous places. Images from places like the Congo and Syria are burned in my mind.

I don’t know what you want me to say? Many Muslims have been murdered by other Muslims in horrific wars in the quest for power and I despise the governments in places like Syria who have caused these. People can be very cruel and for most of us it is shocking.

Starving a population as punishment for the crimes of its leaders is a war crime which cannot be justified.

Many people are brainwashed. We have the ‘luxury’ of growing up in a peaceful country.

Many Israeli and Palestinian kids are growing up hearing hate for their neighbours. They will have had relatives who have suffered at the hands of the ‘enemy’. Some will be actively taught to hate, and may aspire to killing people from the opposing side one day. It’s a strong force and current events are just going to intensify it all. Depressing as hell.

So if by your logic, Israel is entitled to retaliate to the less than 2000 deaths with 32000 deaths. Then surely the Palestinians are now entitled to retaliate with 512000 deaths?

Israel have a strategy to mitigate the impact on civilians

what’s that then and how often is it reviewed on how a strategy on paper works out on the ground?

oh, and why is there no escape route for the same civilians they are so good at identifying and why aren’t independent journalists allowed into the area?

Edit: oh and why when Israel identified hospitals as Hamas lairs did they not seek the assistance of international organisations to provide medical assistance knowing they were going to destroy the majority of the citizens hospitals?

Israel killed the hostages taken by Hamas.

Don’t be silly. The uk was never invaded during World War II and fighter plane technology was in its infancy.

around 22% of the entire Polish population died in the World War II. 80% of all Jewish civilians in Europe died. That puts the bizarre claims of “genocide” in Gaza into perspective. They are incredibly offensive.

Your comment has nothing to do with what I said. Read the whole of my post and the post it replies to.

You're entirely correct, op. It is horrifying how rife antisemitism is in our society now. It is very interesting how all those wailing about the palestinian 'genocide' aren't suggesting hamas release the hostages and surrender, which would instantly solve the problem. But rather they're all happy enough for hamas to keep the hostages and continue continuously bombing Israel as they have done for decades, plus murdering and raping Jews whenever the opportunity arises (as they have very clearly stated they intend to do if a ceasefire is called). Very telling that these gruesome protesters aren't carrying placards calling for the destruction of hamas - and indeed, the man carrying a sign calling hamas terrorists was attacked and then arrested. Utterly, utterly disgusted and ashamed at what's happened to my country.