Is Israel on its way to being a "Failed State?"

[TooBigForMyBoots]

Netanyahu is destroying Gaza.

The IDF is committing war crimes.
Netanyahu's government has angered, pissed off and disappointed Israeli citizens.
They have disappointed, pissed off and angered Israel's allies.
They are pissing off neighbour states.
The Israeli government and the IDF have created a broken nation of traumatised people.

Right next door.

I fear that Israel will become a failed state.

You ask how they sleep at night. I ask you, if you have two or three children, paying 40% of your income on rent and someone offered you a cheap place to live, would you lose any sleep?

In Ireland lots if people are paying 40%÷ of their income on rent. We have a severe housing crisis. I don't see us heading across the border to NI to burn people out of their homes or waiting til they head off to Asda to do their weekly shop before slipping into their beds. After all NI was ours. Are we missing a trick here or is the idea of that completely and totally absurd? Some one else said they are living on land no ones lived on so that's OK then. I was in Ni the other week, there are shit tons of fields there with no one living on them, is it OK for me to pitch up and build an estate for all of my mates and shoot at anyone who tries to stop me? Again the idea is absurd. And what's even more absurd is the idea that the people of Northern Ireland should sit down and be quiet while I build my estate in the field they aren't using anyway becasue don't you know how expensive life is here in Ireland and it's our land anyway.

This is a ridiculous title for a thread. Is anyone going to turn up to the Israeli embassy and say they represent a failed state. Try googling holidays in Israel and you still can get many pleasant holiday options to a 'failed state'.

the use of the term 'failed state' is tantamount to anti-Semitism as you are somehow suggesting Israel should not exist as a state.

For all this that think Israel is an international pariah can you quickly two me precisely how many billions of dollars worth of arms President Biden has announced for delivery to Israel? Not exactly back turning is it.

Why do people despise Israel?

No it isn’t. The question was is Israel on it’s way to becoming a failed state. The general consensus is no.

At the moment US support is still holding strong . However they are becoming more vocal about their discontent with the Israeli’s government actions in Gaza. What will happen if the Israeli government continue to disregard their allies?
The discussion has nothing to do with anti semitism.

@mollyfolk

Israel is a long way to becoming a failed state I agree and although there is concern about civilian death toll in the Gaza conflict there is no way Israel's major supporters are going to turn their back on it.

we need to supply Israel with arms as Israel faces a number of threats from the surrounding region including Iran. If there was some large scale withdrawal of weaponry from Israel by its partners Iran would simply sweep in and destroy the country it detests. Israel to exist needs arms period. Of course you could limit the size of the IDF but then Israel becomes reliant on its nuclear defence; they doesn't seem entirely sensible to me.

there is pressure on Israel to improve its military targeting and reveal its end goal for the conflict but in no way does this mean Israel is any where bearing the status of failed state. I can't imagine the US calling Isareli ambassadors or diplomats to return home can you?

I suppose maybe I could took the title of a thread as support those who wish to see Israel fail as they don't wish it to exist. Perhaps I was wrong.

You were so concerned about the effects of the conflict on British society yesterday and now here you are accusing people of anti-Semitism and despising Israel when people are discussing the question asked by the OP.

It's really only people who want to silence discussion about the conflict who think criticism of Israel is a special case.

Off the top of my head there have been may threads discussing the Russia/Ukraine war, few Putin fans on those.

Criticism of the US handling of the withdrawal from Afghanistan and plenty of discussion about what was achieved.

Plenty of press about how China handled the outbreak of COVID and how our government managed it.

Criticism of the brutality and oppressive nature of the Taliban regime.

Criticism of Iran for many reasons including shooting a young woman for not wearing a head scarf.

Many, many threads on Trump, none of them flattering. Expect those to start increasing again as we approach November.

Almost daily threads discussing the short comings and suspected corruption of UK politicians.

Going back a while now but there was also plenty of criticism of Assad in Syria for his suspected use of sarin gas against his own people.

I could go on.

The Israeli government are breaking international law, our government have been advised of that by their own legal experts, they are causing untold and unnecessary suffering to a civilian population in the process. Our government are supporting the Netanyahu government and claiming we have shared values, that offends me. I'm hoping to see our politicians taken to the Hague, do you think I despise the UK?

@FOJN .

It is evident glistening to the news there are legal concerns about breach of international law in the pursuit of the conflict but this is in no way saying there have been breached in international law.

I think there is a geopolitical reality you cannot leave Israel unarmed against a number of hostile neighbours. I think if thought through if Israel were to be left undefended against Israel the UK and US would have to use their military might to defend Israel and we would be brought into a significant foreign conflict.

I am concerned about the death of British citizens and I think there should be absolute pressure on Israel to protect UK lives. We as a state like any other need to act in the interests of our citizens.

International concern about Israeli targeting of military action is a far way from Israel being a failed state and I think talking of Israel going down the path of being a failed state is completely unrealistic and possibly being inventive to a lot of News whose identity is intertwined with the existence of this state.

In your haste to accuse everyone of hate and antisemitism you still haven't understood the point of the thread have you?

It's not about wishing Israel to become a failed state, it's asking if the disregard for international law shown by the Netanyahu government and the IDF could ultimately lead to that.

I haven’t read any opinion saying Israel doesn’t have a right to exist. Maybe there was one that has been deleted but generally I see this discussion about the Israeli state going against international opinion.

i mean I completely agree with you, Israel is strategically important and I don’t think that they will be left completely isolated.

I don’t know what will happen. I don’t think their allies can sit back and watch Rafah happen either - they’ll need to start taking stronger action.

Do you know how to listen to this interview, please?

@mollyfolk

I agree and obviously there is a range of opinion here and it will be up to international courts to judge on the application of war.

my only concern was that framing Israel as a 'failed state' or the potential of that invites comments that actively argue for it s non existence. Hopefully MN removed such opinions.

I'm Jewish and I think Netanyahu is destroying Israel's future in all likelihood, yes.

This video is also interesting I think, and made me wonder if we're heading for a future where Israel just becomes a country of besieged Haredi (ultra-orthodox) Jews with the rest of the world having abandoned it.

The top 20% in Israel pays 90% of all taxes. Its incredibly easy for this group of people to move to other countries especially since so many Jewish people have usa or European passports. As a small country, losing this tax base means no money for defence and in such a hostile region...furthermore israel is hardly competitive in terms of cost of living vs earnings.

Their main profitable industry (tech) is also very easily movable.

So you haven't seen any posts of that nature but we're all antisemites because you perceive the thread to have "potential" to invite comments arguing Israel doesn't have a right to exist?

Perhaps you could read and understand the thread title before making inflammatory remarks yourself.

@mids2019 the term 'failed state' doesn't mean people want to see that state/country cease to exist. It's a term used when discussing specific geopolitical circumstances. The bar for being a 'failed state' is pretty high. Things which can lead to this term being considered include having a leadership which has lost its legitimacy through extreme corruption / military interference / etc.

Another term which could be considered is 'fragile state'. This refers to a state with weak capacity or legitimacy, which is vulnerable to crisis. Again, the bar is set pretty high.

I don't think Israel would meet the criteria for either at present, but in view of the current situation, it's not an outrageous starting point for a discussion. There are lots of concerns about the legitimacy of leadership, about the blurred boundaries between IDF and 'settler' activities in the Occupied Territories, about potential breaches of international humanitarian law, about what might happen in terms of escalating internal and external conflicts, etc.

I don't support the settlements, the PP was asking how people sleep at night living in such a place. I was explaining.

Also its the true radicals who start building outposts. Most people buy the homes after they are completed and there is a community. It is mostly enabled by the government who build the roads to such areas and seems to encourage people to move out there . The way they persuade people to do aliyah seems to facilitate this. Asking people who don't speak the local language and who haven't secured jobs and have no local support network to move to a country which can be more expensive than London is just a recipe for economic precarity which can make a lot of options seem attractive once you hit a dead end.

No, but that’s due to religious belief, nothing to do with Netanyahu.

I don’t really have time to go into more right now , so this will probably seem very drop and run, but I really need to say I don’t recognize this characterization of general Israeli citizens just seeing the possibility of cheap land in the West Bank etc,and oh we just need to kill/violently evict the residents, because the cost of living in central Israel is too high. Are there a vocal tiny minority of extremists who speak like this - unfortunately there probably are , and I would say it’s revolting and not normal.

My sibling went to a different city not over the green line for cheaper property. We came here knowing it would be more expensive, and our way of life would be simpler, we were happy to make that sacrifice (not that we were well off before!). we didn’t come for an easy ride, but from a religious perspective it was worthwhile

@Scirocco

there are a number o f states that could be conceivably be called 'failed' or 'pariah' staates . Immediate examples include North Korea, Iran, Syria, Sudan, Afghanistan.
you could even argue by you definition Russia would be regarded as a 'failed state'.

you directly state in no way is Israel near the bar we would set for a 'failed state' but should we welcome discussion where that is even posed as some sort of bizarre possibility given the sensitivities of News toward their state and the knowledge many want want it wiped out of exiatence?

@Scirocco

you think it is reasonable to start a discussion where potentially Israel should' be discussed as a 'fragile state' i.e. lacking legitmacy.......😕

No.

sadly Israel has always been plagued by war and terrorism as well as obsessive antisemitism. But it remains the most equal, democratic and fairest society in the Middle East by a huge margin.

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-06-08/ty-article-magazine/.highlight/how-the-west-bank-settlements-became-israels-welfare-state/00000188-9b13-d3a7-adcf-bb1fe8940000

'There is an ongoing phenomenon whereby the state diverts its economic and political attention from those towns to the settlements. This is a conceptual, ideological and political transition from a policy aimed at advancing the so-called development towns [as they are referred to in Hebrew] to one that bolsters the settlements. Of course, it can be argued that the upgrading of various locales within Israel was not done in the most ideal or perhaps beneficial way, but the point is that the towns in question once constituted the national settlement project – until they were replaced by the settlement project in Judea and Samaria, and in the past by the Gaza Strip settlements as well.

The development towns were originally designed as part of an enterprise whose objectives included the integration of new immigrants into Israeli society, the dispersal of the Jewish population throughout the country, and the preservation of state lands. That is also the reason the project was problematic, because the towns suffered for years from inadequate economic infrastructures and from high rates of unemployment. In this sense, the “development mission” was broken off before it was completed, when the political and public agenda shifted to another project involving settling people: occupying the territories.'

Its also backed up by data. Do all poor people move to the settlements? No but they absorb a lot of the poor people. And going forward if most house building is in the settlements, thats where people would go.

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-02-15/ty-article-magazine/.premium/go-west-bank-israels-housing-crisis-plan-turns-even-more-israelis-into-settlers/00000186-545c-de95-a1fe-f65f212f0000

As someone who grew up in Ariel but left as an adult, Noam didn’t view signing up for the lottery in this city, located in the heart of the northern West Bank, as a political issue, or as an issue at all. It was purely an economic choice.

“70 percent of the Israelis in the West Bank are ‘quality-of-life settlers’ and only 30 percent are ideological.”

Most of the people coming to the settlements for economic reasons in recent years have been ultra-Orthodox, he added, and they now constitute 40 percent of all settlers. Most live in Modi’in Ilit and Betar Ilit, and the rest in settlements like Immanuel, Ma’aleh Amos, Asfar and Tel Zion."

The thing is that if the government solution to poverty is building homes on internationally disputed land, you have to worry for the next generation. It is cheap until it is not cheap anymore, it is safe until it is not safe anymore. at some point, the west bank will boil over and there would be another October 7 massacre there and people would not be able to live there, then they will move to your cheap city and then you would be priced out (just like my SIL and BIL have become priced out of bat yam and don't want to move to another israeli city to be priced out yet again). Even if you buy, unless you can buy apartments for every child, the family would just end up getting priced out.

We have a housing crisis in the UK, but its not as acute. The stakes are not so high and as a community we can also establish new jewish communities. Borehamwood is a really good example, it is now far more jewish than it was even 10 years ago cos younger people have moved there and it is quite affordable compared to the likes of Finchley or Hendon (though as i was looking near the station, i found that it wasn't that much more expensive to buy a flat in London compared to a terraced in borehamwood, but if you live over a mile away from the station you have more options). or even canvey island in the case of Haredim. There is also more awareness of the housing crisis in the UK and long term i do believe the government will do something i.e. relax planning permission and tax BTL landlords, which will alleviate the overall housing crisis including for Jewish people. In israel, people don't seem to have that same level of interest in their economic survival given that they are mostly concerned that they would not be murdered in their beds by hamas terrorists. The reality is that you need to be solvent to lead a good life and I would not want to live a life with such low expectations that my chief worry is whether I would be killed in my bed.

Who would you describe as the second most equal, democratic and fairest society in the Middle East?

Nobody is saying that Israel is lacking legitimacy. As in so many other threads, please stop trying to deliberately misrepresent people.

One of the markers of a failed or fragile state is issues with the legitimacy of the state's leadership.

Many people in Israel and around the world have raised concerns about corruption and the legitimacy of the current leadership.

Now, I'm not an expert in the particulars of determining a 'failed' or 'fragile' state. My personal view is that the criteria don't seem to be met at this time as the bar is pretty high. But if someone wants to ask if current concerns mean that a country is at risk of heading down that slide towards those endpoints, that's not in itself a thread demonstrating hate towards the country in question.

I remember having similar discussions on other sites and in real life in relation to the UK, US and Russia, all in the past year. It's a discussion, not a call to eradicate a country.