URNWA - Hamas investigation. Thread 2

[EasterIssland]

Hi.
The previous thread finished on the weekend and a new one hasn’t been opened yet so thought I’d open it finished after some information released by idf about Hamas data center being under urnwa hq

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/conflict-in-the-middle-east/4995041-to-find-the-silence-about-unrwa-being-hamas-hypocritical

@ladystonehearts I wondered that.

Japan will resume UNRWA funding next month.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/mar/27/israeli-settlers-protest-un-agency-refugees-unrwa-jerusalem

Some very concerning statements in this article, made by protesters in Israel.

I can't believe that these are real people 🤦‍♀️

Real people that other people defend and support.

I hadn't realised that Trump had cut Unrwa aid completely before. I'm educating myself on so many things now. For anyone else like me!
"Asked on Tuesday if the US should “get the right of return off the table”, the US ambassador to the UN, Nikki Haley, said she thought it should.
“I do agree with that … I absolutely think we have to look at right of return,” she said, referring to the withdrawal of Palestinians’ right to reclaim property in Israel that they or their ancestors were forced to leave.Yaakov Amidror, a retired major general and former national security adviser to the Israeli prime minister, Benjamin Netanyahu, said closing UNRWA “in the long run, no question, is the right move to do”.
“Reduction in funds is one way to shut up and close UNRWA. How do you do it? By saying, ‘UNRWA, you don’t exist any more, with all due respect.’”
The German foreign minister, Heiko Maas, said: “The loss of this organisation could unleash an uncontrollable chain reaction.”

US confirms end to funding for UN Palestinian refugees | Palestinian territories | The Guardian

Another interesting article. I am understanding a bit more what other posters were referring to

"Indeed, the long-term problem is more profound, and it’s essential to understand because the Trump administration seeks to redefine what it means to be a Palestinian refugee, which in turn could have implications for refugees worldwide.
Underlying the Trump administration’s cuts to UNRWA is the false premise that Palestinian refugees derive their refugee status from UNRWA. They don’t. They derive it from international law. UNRWA’s role is simply to provide social services to these stateless refugees—not determine who is and who isn’t a refugee under international law."

It's depressing. I think I read that, according to the Israeli Govt, 70% of Israelis do not want any aid allowed into Gaza. Happy to see people starve to death.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/mar/31/israel-plan-un-dismantle-palestinian-relief-agency-unwra

To quote Ken Roth also in the Gaurdian
“Israel also hopes to destroy Unrwa because the government naively believes that Palestinian refugees would then somehow forget that they are Palestinian refugees and stop insisting on a right to return.”

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/apr/09/unwra-vital-to-avert-starvation-in-gaza-says-agency-official

Yes. Just dropping a few ready meals out of the sky will look nice on TV and a few trucks might make it past vigilante groups but flooding the market place and letting people who know the job just get on with it is what’s needed.

An added complication at this stage is that some of the children are probably too far gone to just recover as out patients. These kids will suffer lasting effects for the rest of their lives.

Why is UNWRA viewed as a problem?
The vast majority of those registered with UNWRA have never fled their homes. Most are descendants now into their fifth generation.

Eligibility requirements to be recognised as a Palestinian refugee changed in 1965 to include third generation descendants. In 1982 eligibility changed again to include ALL descendants of Palestinian males. The Result?
The creation of a permanent and perpetually growing population of Palestinian refugees.

UNRWA refuses to divulge how many registered refugees meets its own original definition ' of having lived in Mandatory Palestine between June 1946 and May 1948'.
There are currently 5.9 million refugees. No one comes off the list.

UNWRA refuses to accept that people who are citizens of a country are refugees. Jordan granted citizenship to the Palestinian refugees who fled there including (at the time) those in the West Bank, which Jordan occupied between 1949 and 1967. So more than 2.2 million Palestinian refugees are actually citizens of a sovereign state.

The Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank consider themselves to be living in Palestine. They engage in efforts to have Palestine recognised as an existing state on International forums. So 1 million Palestinians in Gaza and 870,000 in the West Bank registered as refugees are actually living in what they themselves claim (and seek recognition of) as Palestine.
So what Palestine are these refugees from?
The Palestine that will one day replace Israel?

Had the rest of the world been registered as refugees in the same manner as UNWRA does for the Palestinians the (relative) peace that has marked much of the world since WW2 would have been replaced by constant war.
This is why in my view UNWRA should be dismantled/defunded.

@@Alwayslookonthe
Well at least you are honest and admit that you want to deny the right of return that was agreed by the UN.
It’s more honest at least than just making up lies about UNWRA
Your point does not sit well though with the “return” to the West Bank of the settlers after 2000 years.

There is no International law that requires Israel to allow Palestinian refugees and their descendants to return to Israel. No treaties or binding UN resolutions were violated by Israel's expulsion of Palestinians during the 1948 conflict and none provide a right to return for Palestinian refugees.

Refugee status in itself does not entail a right to return to ones original country.

The major treaty on refugees, the Refugee Convention (1951) and its 1967 UN protocol relating to the status of refugees does not even address the issue of repatriation.
It is primarily concerned with preventing the forced return of refugees to their state of origin and guaranteeing their rights in the state to which they fled.
The convention promised its signatories the right to decide which refugees, if any, would be allowed to settle in their territories.

UNWRA has registered millions of people as refugees over the decades who do not meet the basic criteria applied to EVERY other group of refugees in the world. It seeks not to settle refugees but by registering millions as refugees its desire is to keep the 1948 war going. This is why UNWRA should be dismantled/defunded.

From wikipediahttps://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_right_of_return

The right of return was initially formulated on 27 June 1948 by United Nations mediator Folke Bernadotte.[5] Proponents of the right of return hold that it is a human right, whose applicability both generally and specifically to the Palestinians is protected under international law

from the universal declaration of human rights

Article 13

1. Everyone has the right to freedom of movement and residence within the borders of each State.
2. Everyone has the right to leave any country, including his own, and to return to his country

https://www.unrwa.org/resources/reports/unrwa-situation-report-101-situation-gaza-strip-and-west-bank-including-east-Jerusalem

That's an interesting one. I think the Israeli argument against it is that the state of Israel didn't exist at the time most people left. So the people who left what was the Palestinian mandate were never citizens of Israel and didn't leave it and so are not entitled to return. The country they left no longer exists. That does seem a bit like cheating!

When you emigrate and your children are born elsewhere, then they may or may not have citizenship of your country of origin - depending on that country's rules. In the UK for example, you can only pass nationality down for 2 generations without the descendant being born in the UK. I appreciate that for Palestinians, the parents may have wanted to be in the country when their children were born and not have been permitted to be.

Could a right of return into a newly formed Palestinian state break the deadlock?

Does anyone even know how many are descendants of people from the West Bank and Gaza, and how many from what is now Israel? I guess this gets harder and harder to determine with each generation.

And would Israelis who had lived in the West Bank / Gaza or were descended from them also have a right of return to the Palestinian state? And would they be treated as equal citizens (as we expect Arab Israelis to be)?

After all, the Palestinian Right to Return is conferred just for having lived in the Palestinian mandate for a short time, not necessarily being indigenous. Many Arabs came from other surrounding areas in the few decades before 1948.

It all seems like a bit of a recipe for continuing conflict.

And using it for continuing conflict goes directly against the UN 1948 resolution.

The comment was added because someone mentioned about right to return for Palestinians. I think if someone is displaced because what is going on at the moment they should be entitled to return back to Palestine when the war is over.
which is different to a Israel citizen that has emigrated to USA for example and has kids there. These kids feel they’ve a right to return to Israel (they do) and kick current Palestinians out of their land. This is what is happening with many settlers and as I’ve posted in the settlers thread today Israel has increased the amount of settlers in Palestine since the war started.
one type of returning is contemplated in international law. The other one is illegal

www.jpost.com/israel-hamas-war/article-797615

DETENTION AND ALLEGED ILL-TREATMENT OF DETAINEES FROM GAZA DURING ISRAEL-HAMAS WAR

https://www.unrwa.org/resources/reports/detention-and-alleged-ill-treatment-detainees-gaza-during-israel-hamas-war

Again, there is no international law that requires Israel to allow Palestinians and their descendants to return to Israel.

The view that resolution 194 created a Palestinian right of return mischaracterises the resolution’s legal status. The UN General Assembly’s powers are limited, it cannot confer legal or binding rights. Therefore, the resolution is purely advisory it does not and cannot create a ‘right’ to anything including ‘return’.

Civil war in Syria highlighted even further the paradoxes inherent in the UNIQUE manner in which Palestinian refugees are classified and treated differently from every other refugee.
Millions of Syrians have been forced to flee including Palestinian refugees living in Syria. Palestinian refugees who have managed to flee to Europe and become citizens of Germany remain on UNWRA’s books in Syria as registered refugees, whilst Syrian refugees that have become citizens of Germany are (quite rightly) no longer considered refugees.

No one comes off UNWRA’s list. There are currently 5.9 million registered refugees.

UNWRA ensures that the conflict with Israel will continue and remain intractable.
This is why UNWRA should be dismantled/defunded.

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2024-04-17/ty-article/.premium/unrwa-israeli-army-forced-staff-to-confess-ties-to-hamas-using-torture/0000018e-ed4f-d5d5-a59f-ef5f32280000