URNWA - Hamas investigation. Thread 2

[EasterIssland]

Hi.
The previous thread finished on the weekend and a new one hasn’t been opened yet so thought I’d open it finished after some information released by idf about Hamas data center being under urnwa hq

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/conflict-in-the-middle-east/4995041-to-find-the-silence-about-unrwa-being-hamas-hypocritical

Im surprised that the information shared by idf hasn’t been spread by any newspaper (I’ve checked a few in uk and Spain).

some of the info I saw on Twitter said some of the pics provided by idf / times of Israel were in fact equipment for the solar panels on the HQ
https://twitter.com/SohiubN/status/1756386733380231508

I’ll report my title to say it’s the thread 2. Forgot to add it apologies

I did read a CNN report that stated part of one tunnel was said by IDF to run along the edge of the UNWRA HQ’s outdoor courtyard but that the actual rooms they found were not under UNWRA but some estimated 700 metres away.

In addition, the CNN reporter said that it was impossible to geo-locate the rooms when he was inside them due to IDF taking all their devices, likely no communications signal and the way they were brought in by IDF which was not from UNWRA HQ property downwards, but from a ways over walking underground and then told they were “under UNWRA.”

I will look for it.

I’ve just found a thread in Twitter about journalists visiting the area arranged by idf to explain about the information they released the other day

(warning it’s quite long thread)

https://twitter.com/MichaKobs/status/1756821215212130459

Sounds similar to what the person is saying to the thread in Twitter I’ve just posted

Sorry, it was AP not CNN, the reporter went and saw the tunnels that IDF found.

https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-unwra-gaza-tunnels-31f6ca23365e349bcde1332d5028e431

”It did not prove definitively that Hamas militants operated in the tunnels underneath the UNRWA facility, but it did show that at least a portion of the tunnel ran underneath the facility’s courtyard.”

I must have read the devices thing in another report. The reporter in that article said that IDF made them put their devices in a bucket tied to a string while at UNWRA and then presented them their devices when underground in same bucket with string said to lead all the way back through the tunnels to the UNWRA HQ…

Will look again.

my history bar to the rescue,
yes the devices in a bucket thing was from Rueters who also went on an IDF tour of the tunnels
”Reporters on the closely escorted trip entered a shaft next to a school on the periphery of the U.N. compound, descending to the concrete-lined tunnel. Twenty minutes of walking through the stifling hot, narrow and occasionally winding passage brought them underneath UNRWA Headquarters, an army lieutenant-colonel leading the tour said.
The tunnel, which the military said was 700 metres long and 18 metres deep, bifurcated at times, revealing side-rooms. There was an office space, with steel safes that had been opened and emptied. There was a tiled toilet. One large chamber was packed with computer servers, another with industrial battery stacks.”
”Lack of cellphone reception in the tunnel made geolocating it as under UNRWA Headquarters impossible. Instead, reporters were asked to put personal items in a bucket that was lowered by rope into a vertical hole on the grounds of the headquarters. They were reunited with the still-tethered items during the tunnel tour.”
https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/hamas-had-command-tunnel-under-un-gaza-hq-israeli-military-says-2024-02-10/

The tweet doesn’t make sense when matched to the reporters accounts in Rueters and AP who were on the tour. Yes the UNWRA HQ had solar panels, but so did most buildings in Gaza because of the constant blackouts.

yes IDF found a battery room well underground and connected to a tunnel than ran along the UNWRA courtyard…but why on Earth would those solar panels be charging those batteries? You don’t put batteries up to 700metres away as the crow flies and then bury them 50m underground? It makes no technical sense at all. Not when that tunnel likely runs other several other buildings before getting to UNWRA HQ…..

I am operating under presumption that the tunnels were Hamas built and used, as that does seem likely even if not yet proven. I just don’t think the allegation that UNWRA’s solar panels are directly connected to those batteries is likely.

RTE news : United Nations create independent panel to 'assess' UNRWA

http://www.rte.ie/news/world/2024/0205/1430597-unrwa-gaza/

Housing Minister Yitzhak Goldknopf orders the director general of the Israel Land Authority to evict the United Nations agency for Palestinian refugees from any state land it is currently occupying.

It’s unclear whether Goldknopf has the authority to execute the move.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/goldknopf-aims-to-evict-unrwa-from-east-jerusalem-office/

Why are we just ignoring part of the quote someone provided above where it says the shaft is next to a school on the periphery of the UN compound. So next to a school, which is in itself absolutely revolting and putting the school children at risk, but also right up against the UN compound. Regardless of UNRWA specifically - how did no one from the UN compound notice? I'd love for there to be an independent investigation into the UN in Gaza, not just specifically UNRWA. Hopefully this will happen once the war is over or there is a ceasefire.

The quote said the shaft was outside the UN compound. So there would have been a big concrete wall and access roads between the shaft entrance and the school. From there it was twenty minutes of walking to get to any underground room presumed to be used by Hamas.

As for how could they not know…these are as far down as the Tube is. Do you know exactly which buildings the Tube runs underneath? Unlikely even though those tunnels are hardly a secret.

No but I am sure that those who live or work in the buildings above the tube were only all too aware that tunnels were being dug out underneath them.

If people were above the new Tube tunnels while they were being dug out, they might hear the heavy tunnel boring going on if they are home, in the quiet hours of the night, if tunnelling were not happening during business hours. But Tube tunnels are ten times the size of the Hamas tunnels and heavy boring machines are used. You would not hear a human sized tunnel being dug by hand even if you laid on the floor with a stethoscope and listened all day long. Which is how Hamas dug their tunnels.

In addition, the Hamas tunnels only ran under the edge of a courtyard within the UN compound. What are the chances someone would even be there to hear when they are digging? Especially when there is city traffic noise all around during the work day.

So did Hamas dig tunnels in a different way to how Hezbollah have been digging tunnels? Because that could be heard by Israelis living by the border, so not even directly on top of the tunnels.

Yes because in Lebanon there is no blockade and no need for secrecy.

You don't think Hezbollah needed secrecy to build their tunnels? You think they were ok with Israel knowing exactly where they are? 🥴 That would defeat the whole purpose of having tunnels, which is so they can hide from the IDF

Not to the same extent as Hamas because Hezbollah are in Lebanon. That isn’t part of Israel, nor does Israel occupy it, it is a foreign, sovereign nation. Israel can’t fly surveillance drones over them to see what they are doing.

In addition, there is no blockade on Hezbollah, so they can bring in what ever tunnelling equipment they want to. Hamas cannot. Tunnel borers are far too big to smuggle in, even in pieces.

Besides Humerdingeryoo, hearing heavy equipment doesn’t mean you can use mystical powers to go oh that is definitely a tunnel being dug three klicks north of here. And then lick your finger and test the wind, and go, oh yes and they are at exactly 45metres deep. It’s underground.

In an area 25 miles long by approx 7 miles wide with an estimated several hundred kilometers of tunnels the IDF found one in the general area of an aid organisation building and therefore starving and bombing the civilian population is justified?

Have I understood the argument in defence of genocide correctly?

ireland provides €20m for urnwa
https://twitter.com/MichealMartinTD/status/1758092107888082948

No.

Can you explain what the argument is then?

No one wants to support any aid agency that is supporting terrorism, but there is a number of internal and independent investigations now underway to find out what is the extent, if any, infiltration of Hamas in UNWRA. I am sure most people at this stage understand that ceasing UNWRAS humanitarian work and their funding is a catastrophic decision with unspeakable consequences. There is no other option for distributing aid so UNWRA it is. Who genuinely would deny starving people food? I and no one else on these threads can say for definite what is true and what it is not but I am sure we can all agree that humanitarian aid cannot stop while we find out.

Canadian defence minister- defunding UNRWA dreadful political decision, and Netanyahu’s actions hurting Israel.

From a tweet by Arnaud Bertrand in X embedded below:

“This is incredible. Rob Oliphant, whose job is to defend Canada's foreign policy in Parliament, got recorded in a private phone call admitting how disgusting Canada's de-funding of UNRWA is, and that he does believe Israel is committing genocide.
cbc.ca/news/politics/…

Here what he said on the leaked recording of the call:

"When I read that we were pausing money to UNRWA — I'm going to be very clear — it was political. And I don't just mean domestic politics. It has to do with our allies. I thought it was the wrong decision."

In short: nothing to do with the allegations against UNRWA (which to this day are still unproven), everything to do with the US pressuring Canada to de-fund it.

Oliphant also said on the call that, even if the Israeli allegation is true, he doesn't agree with the Trudeau government's response: "You don't stop aid to Gaza because of 12 or 13 employees out of 13,000. It drives me crazy. It is opportunistic, it is unfair, and it is maligning the operation of a UN organization that is doing, not perfect work — there's no organization that's made of human beings that's perfect, UNRWA has its faults. But it is the best we have for education, for medical care, for food, all of those things.

My heart falls down in my body. My heart hurts, because the only way to get that aid there is UNRWA.

We can't have 200 trucks a day. We need 800 trucks a day. We need more entry points. We need water access from the Mediterranean. And we need to push on those points. But we also need UNRWA, which is the only body that has the infrastructure to deliver the aid."

Oliphant said that any decision to divert UNRWA aid to other channels likely would be symbolic, because "the reality is that UNICEF or World Food Program or other agencies are going to have to use the same people that work for UNRWA. It's political and it's driving me crazy."

He added: "I will defend UNRWA forever. Their work in Lebanon, their work in Jordan, I've been there, I've been to the refugee camps. I've examined the curriculum that people have gone crazy about, saying it's antisemitic. I don't believe it is. I think UNRWA is maligned every day."

On the call he also said he does believe Israel is committing "genocidal activity": "Do I believe there's genocidal activity on the part of Israel? Probably yes, from what I have seen."

He says Netanyahu is hurting not only Gaza but Israel too: "Netanyahu is hurting Israel. Not only killing Gazans, but hurting Israel. So for the love of Israel, tell him to stop."

Lastly he said that Israel — not other countries — should be made to pay the cost of the war: "Israel needs to pay for rebuilding the country it destroyed. I don't want to pay for that," he said, before acknowledging that Canada likely will be called on to contribute something, along with Gulf Arab nations...”

https://x.com/rnaudbertrand/status/1758166164113621236?s=46