Israel/Hamas War - Ceasefire

[Toggenburgsaregreat]

Each Saturday we are seeing demonstrations in London where people are marching with placards and calling for a ceasefire in the Hamas/Israel war.

However, it is difficult to know how the supporters of Palestine think this can be achieved? (Interestingly, no calls for Hamas to cease hostilities and return the hostages were heard - so is this really a call for unilateral disarmament?)

And who should Israel negotiate a ceasefire with? Hamas, ISIS, ISSP, The Muslim Brotherhood - all of these groups/any of these groups?

What is it the supporters of Palestine actually want?

Fed up of these child-killing apologists.

There is nothing commendable about the trauma that children in Gaza are being subjected to. It’s horrific.

x.com/ajplus/status/1760048539135066575?s=20

He's a far right idiot who believes that completely crushing people is the only way to go. The Israeli govt and the history it is creating would be his wet dream.
One of his many crackers was saying that mass internment works, citing Ireland as successful example. He is probably the only person in the world who thinks that.
What he is doing in the HoL is beyond me .

Given the US veto at the UN of the Algerian ceasefire resolution I wonder what people's thoughts are on the US preferred resolution which calls for:
A temporary ceasefire as soon as possible, requires the release of all hostages taken from Israel and requires the lifting of all restrictions on the delivery of humanitarian aid.

Rather than an emotive "it's a US proposal therefore it must be bad" response I was looking for constructive comments and surely anything that gets a ceasefire (even if temporary) returns hostages and allows aid has merit.

My initial thoughts are...

It's a start, and we're finally seeing some shift in the US (and therefore UK, because the UK will follow the US) position.

I want to see the hostages released and aid let in.

But "as soon as possible" leaves a lot of wiggle room. The Israeli government could say they agree, destroy everything they want to destroy and then stop, saying that was the first time it was "possible".

A "temporary" ceasefire in exchange for all of one side's bargaining chips is probably going to be considered a poor deal by the decision-makers of Hamas. To their families and (hopefully) the wider world, the people taken hostage are valued and respected as individual human beings who need to be free. To Hamas leadership however, they are tools with which to bargain. Hamas leaders will have learned from previous negotiations over the years that they can command a high 'price' for hostages, especially hostages with military connections. I don't know if they'll give up one of their only remaining bits of leverage in exchange for a "temporary" ceasefire.

I don't know if that's too pessimistic of me. I'm having a pessimistic day today.

@sirocco I agree. I doubt Hamas will return hostages if the fighting will resume afterwards, and the word temporary suggests that strongly I also doubt the morality of giving aid to people, then allowing them to be killed later in an ongoing military campaign. Either it is right to stop the violence or it is not. I don't believe it is credible to say it is right to stop the violence for a few weeks, then resume.

It’s only offered so they can blame Hamas for refusing and then continue to wipe out Gaza.

Return the hostages and stop killing children and destroying Gaza permanently is what should be offered.

@stormy4319trevor
@Scirocco

Hmmm I see your points on Hamas being reluctant to give up the hostages as this would reduce their bargaining position and also force them to clarify how many are left alive.

Equally I don't see Israel being too fond of the proposal either. Whilst a ceasefire would certainly stop (or significantly reduce) the deaths of Palestinian civilians, it would come at the cost of leaving Hamas in power. With Hamas committed to repeating attacks on Israel all it would achieve is replacing Palestinian civilian deaths today for Israeli civilian deaths tomorrow.

So simply on the basis that both Hamas and Israel don't like it that probably means it has some merit but equally that means it will never happen and sadly leaves us with the current situation of "last man standing ".

@1dayatatime Do you think there's no hope of regime change with international pressure, negotiations and diplomacy? Has anyone suggested a ceasefire requiring Hamas leadership to step down and another party taking their place, or even a coalition?

It’s not appropriate to protect future Israelis by killing thousands of current Gazan children. There are other ways to reduce all the anger and killing. For example, stop murdering children, stop the illegal settlements.

Nancy Pelosi has commented that Netanyahu does not want peace.

Agreed. Both leaderships need to step down.

@Snowypeak I do think Hamas leadership must be held accountable for Oct 7th. I don't see the point in punishing lots of people who had nothing to do with the original crime, either. I can't see it accomplishes anything.

@stormy4319trevor

"Has anyone suggested a ceasefire requiring Hamas leadership to step down and another party taking their place, or even a coalition?"

++++

Yes Egypt proposed exactly this and not surprisingly Hamas said no.

www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/hamas-islamic-jihad-reject-giving-up-power-return-permanent-ceasefire-egyptian-2023-12-25/

@Snowypeak

"Agreed. Both leaderships need to step down."

+++

I don't disagree with you but whereas that is entirely possible (and most likely) to happen in Israel as a democracy, elections have been banned in Gaza so the only way for Hamas to step down is either voluntarily (unlikely - why would they do this?) or by force which involves a whole lot more Palestinian civilian deaths.

I know it's a start but I feel its wrong that the motions of the proposal are both points that should be done unconditionally.
Hostages should be released unconditionally and sufficient aid being allowed in where people are dying of starvation and disease should also be done unconditionally.
I do however realise that the leaders of both sides do not seem to agree to this. It is a depressing state of affairs
The word 'temporarily' ceasefire doesn't bode well for the Palestinians, feed them and allow some respite before continuing to kill them. I would hope at the minimum that the proposal has a clause to say that there will be significant efforts made towards a full ceasefire during the temporary one.

And I see that there is no mention of all the thousands of Palestinians being held In Israeli prisons without trial or charge which includes minors
What is to be of them? Will this aspect just be ignored

@1dayatatime

I think neither leadership will want to think the other side has “won” so neither will step down unless the other does too. I’m not sure that the Israeli leadership will change significantly after another election as apparently 70% of Israelis polled in support of Netanyahu’s war policy. And of course Hamas doesn’t have elections at all.

So while they both need to go I don’t know how that would happen.

The US threatening to pull funding from Israel might be a start.

Along with a coordinated international effort to oust Hamas.

What can I say? Utterly despicable.

Totally! I can already hear the Israeli government saying " We tried but they refused so we don't have a choice. They made us do it!".

It doesn't really matter who Israel should be negotiating with since they are no longer interested in a 2 state policy. They won't go back to the table unless the US cuts their funding, IMO.

@Snowypeak

Along with a coordinated international effort to oust Hamas.

How do you see that happening?

I find these kinds of questions tiresome and disingenuous. Like someone sarcastically asking a non-medic how they propose to treat their tumour then if they dislike the side effects of the first treatment that’s been tried.

I’m sure that if a number of trained, experienced and non-murderous experts in this field put their heads together, there must be ways that don’t involve killing thousands of children. Isn’t it worth a try?