Israel/Hamas War - Ceasefire

[Toggenburgsaregreat]

Each Saturday we are seeing demonstrations in London where people are marching with placards and calling for a ceasefire in the Hamas/Israel war.

However, it is difficult to know how the supporters of Palestine think this can be achieved? (Interestingly, no calls for Hamas to cease hostilities and return the hostages were heard - so is this really a call for unilateral disarmament?)

And who should Israel negotiate a ceasefire with? Hamas, ISIS, ISSP, The Muslim Brotherhood - all of these groups/any of these groups?

What is it the supporters of Palestine actually want?

@stormy4319trevor no idea. His office is now saying he wasn't talking about relocating Palestinians there so then why show the video and present it in a summit that is there to talk about moving forward with peace plans. But reports say that nobody gave it much attention and the EU chief criticised him for wasting time

Josep Borrell, the EU’s high representative, told reporters that Israel Katz had come to the meeting and presented two videos to the bloc’s foreign ministers.
One was for an artificial island off the coast of Gaza and another on a railway linking the Middle East to India. Borrell said:
This didn’t have much to do with what we were discussing.He added:
I think the minister could have made better use of his time to worry about the security of his country and the high number of deaths in the Middle East and the high death toll in Gaza.

@Parkingt111 How bizarre!

Ugh, @Parkingt111 is this for real and not some kind of weird dream you've had?? Like a weird dream one might have after eating too much cheese? Sounds so utterly insane! Sending people to a man-made island sounds even dumber than the UK sending migrants to Rwanda.

(To be clear for those on here who like to pick apart everything I say, I'm not actually accusing Parking of having made it up, it's a joke. It just sounds too bizarre to be real! What a truly fucked up world we live in.)

@Humdingerydoo his office is saying that he didn't mean for the Palestinians to be relocated there. All very bizarre as said by Stormy.

I have seen a update on a plan for a truce that Netanyahu has apparently presented to Hamas. It doesn't call for a complete end to the fighting though and I haven't read any Hamas reaction to it

@Parkingt111 Do you know the details of this truce deal?

From the times of Israel:
Israel has reportedly submitted a proposal through Qatari and Egyptian mediators that would see it agree to a pause in its fighting in Gaza for as long as two months, in exchange for a phased release of the remaining 136 hostages in Gaza.
The proposal does not heed the Hamas demand for Israel to end the war completely, but does appear to go further than Israel has gone in previous offers, according to the Axios news site, which cites two Israeli officials.
The offer is publicized as White House Middle East czar Brett McGurk is in the region for meetings with Egyptian and Qatari counterparts aimed at advancing a hostage deal, a US official told The Times of Israel.
Israel is now waiting for Hamas’s response to the new proposal and is cautiously optimistic about the chance for progress in the coming days, the Israeli officials tell Axios.
The Israeli proposal reported by Axios would see the remaining children, women, men over the age of 60 and critically ill hostages released during the first stage. Subsequent stages would see female soldiers and men under the age of 60 who are not soldiers, followed by make soldiers and the bodies of hostages.
The Israeli offer states that Israel and Hamas would agree in advance as to how many security prisoners would be released by Jerusalem in each stage before holding separate negotiations on the names of these convicts..
The offer would also include a withdrawal of Israeli forces from the main population centers in Gaza and the gradual return of Palestinians to the northern Strip, from which they were ordered to evacuate.
The offer stipulates that Israel will not agree to end the war completely, nor release all 6,000 Palestinian security prisoners, but Israeli officials tell Axios that they are willing to release a significant number.
If implemented, IDF operations in Gaza would be significantly smaller in scope after the pause concludes, Axios says.

I've just seen this @Parkingt111

www.instagram.com/p/C2ayDO6vGfN/?igsh=MXF6azl3cGxtdHlwNg==

Thank you @Parkingt111

Are you sure that is accurate? Euro news is saying that the artificial island has nothing to do with housing or displacing Palestinians:

”Katz, who was recently appointed Israel's foreign minister, showed his European counterparts two videos during the meeting, Borrell said.

The first promoted a rail infrastructure project connecting Gaza with the occupied Palestinian territory of the West Bank. The second showed a proposal to build an artificial island in the Mediterranean Sea off the Gazan coast that would serve as a commercial hub linking the Gaza Strip with the rest of the world.

The infrastructure project dates back to Katz's time as Israel's transport minister and was first pitched in a 2017 video as "an answer to a reality that is bad for the Palestinians and not good for Israel," according to Reuters.

But according to a diplomatic source who spoke on condition of anonymity, Katz's decision to pitch the initiative during discussions centred around potential future peace negotiations had left EU ministers "perplexed."
Katz did not suggest the island could be used to house Gazans, nor did he link the initiative to the so-called two-state solution, the diplomatic source added.
But Borrell said the videos had "little, if not no relevance, to the question under discussion."

https://www.euronews.com/my-europe/2024/01/22/artificial-island-off-gaza-pitched-by-israeli-minister-in-eu-meeting-is-irrelevant-borrell

Same story on an artificial island but back in 2011 and with no mention of relocating Gazans:

www.theguardian.com/world/2011/mar/30/israel-artificial-island-gaza-coast

Interesting that the same story is now it is being spun as an artificial island for Gazans to be relocated to:

www.palestinechronicle.com/katzs-prison-artificial-island-for-gazans-shocks-eu-diplomats/

In any event it's an unrealistic idea a bit like Boris bridge to N Ireland.

It is kind of fascinating to watch straw reality get spun into propaganda gold.
Reminds us that as well as the war on the ground, there is also an information war online with all stakeholders/sides playing a part in either creating or spreading propaganda (albeit most of the spreaders are doing it unknowingly).

Yes I have just read that his office have accused the Guardian of lying as they were the first to report on it yesterday. So, one or the other is lying or then a misinterpretation of what was presented

More news outlets are now reporting on the deal that Netanyahu has proposed. It seems there has been a further escalation overnight with a increased death toll on both sides.
I know some of you disagree on your reasons for a ceasefirec and not because you support or are happy with the deaths. But my own view is yesterday's ceasefire, would have saved over a hundred of those who were killed today.

Lots of Israeli soldiers killed overnight, it looks like they may have been blown up by their own munitions Awful.

Just reading about Netanyahu's deal on the BBC, I might be missing something but it sounds like he's proposing a 2 month halt so hostages can be released with nothing in return. I can see why Hamas said no (as presumably he will resume action afterwards and they will have lost their leverage) but maybe this is an opening and they can negotiate a mutually acceptable next step?
🤞🤞

@AdamRyan I don't think Hamas will agree to anything less than a full ceasefire, going by their reaction to the previous proposed deal. But I may be wrong. There has been no mention of their reaction to the proposal.

I haven't read the BBC article but it seems in exchange for Palestinian prisoners, and letting Palestinians go back to the north. Although that is something they have previously said they will allow eventually after the US have been steadily pushing for it.

There’s also nothing - currently - about working towards a 2SS.

How much of this is being influenced by ICJ? I’m sure it’s being influenced by pressures within Israel to make a deal to release hostages. Who holds the most power in this negotiation? Arguably Israel, but…

Hamas won't agree to anything less than a full ceasefire and the release of all Palestinian hostages. I imagine that from their POV Netanyahu is not a good faith negotiator. Remember during the last pause, as Palestinians were released a similar number were newly taken into administrative detention by Israel. There is absolutely no trust.

Who has the power in this situation? Arguably the Palestinians, the Israeli hostages are ignored by the Netanyahu government , more IDF soldiers are returning severely wounded or dead, public opinion within Israel will turn against him.

Add to that the fact that 100'000+ Israeli's are still in hotels after being displaced in the north by Hezbollah. Paying for that, plus soldiers being on standby and the effect of the Houthi's blockade of the Red Sea, means that the Israeli economy is faltering.

Netanhyu also faced a no confidence vote in Knesset yesterday evening. Everyone who voted, voted no confidence, he only survived because the coalition members abstained from voting so there were not enough votes to oust him.

The coalition abstaining instead of voting confidence is a clear signal he is on very thin ice as abstaining is the edge of the blade towards voting no confidence.

Oh I hope he goes soon. He absolutely terrifies me to be honest.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.timesofisrael.com/no-confidence-motion-against-netanyahu-fails-in-knesset-with-only-18-votes-in-favor/amp/

Really interesting reading. Looks like Netanyahu's government is like the Tories, fighting to survive while very unpopular. I also found it heartening to read some more balanced approaches being suggested by other politicians.

And tonight's award for best example of whataboutery goes to @Auvergne63.
Thank you. Do I get a prize? But before accusing me of whataboutery ( an accusation which I utterly refute, by the way), make sure you are not guilty of it yourself.....
But perhaps next time how about a structured fact based counter argument?
A counter argument regarding what exactly? Why would I want to counter argue against Hamas' atrocities? I find this very strange.
But let's talk about facts: just under 26000 dead in Gaza, a child dies every 8 minutes, fear of famine and starvation, diseases, no anaesthetics, no antibiotics, etc... What Hamas did was horrific, what the Israeli government is doing is as horrific.
These threads are becoming so tediously predictable.
Indeed. Being accused of whataboutery is tediously predictable.

I've just read that Hamas have rejected the deal as they want a permanent ceasefire.

Isn't a permanent ceasefire better than a temporary one ?

Don't fewer people get killed that way ?

And whilst people aren't getting killed, you can sit down and negotiate.

Or is this all too simplistic ?