Israel/Hamas War - Ceasefire

[Toggenburgsaregreat]

Each Saturday we are seeing demonstrations in London where people are marching with placards and calling for a ceasefire in the Hamas/Israel war.

However, it is difficult to know how the supporters of Palestine think this can be achieved? (Interestingly, no calls for Hamas to cease hostilities and return the hostages were heard - so is this really a call for unilateral disarmament?)

And who should Israel negotiate a ceasefire with? Hamas, ISIS, ISSP, The Muslim Brotherhood - all of these groups/any of these groups?

What is it the supporters of Palestine actually want?

I didn't say I trust terrorists. I said the truth, whatever that is, will come out in the end. Israel could speed that process up by allowing a full and independent investigation into the events of October 7th.

Hamas live streamed a pogrom. You don't even have to believe Israel if that bothers you so much.

There's a happy medium where you don't have to trust and/or support the IDF if you don't want to but where you also don't trust and/or support terrorists.

There's a lot of whataboutery whenever Hamas' atrocities are mentioned isn't there?

Yup. There sure is. It's incessant and utterly exhausting and infuriating. Ugh.

You beat me to it!

I'm not saying that I agree with their attack or condone it at all but what Hamas has written in their report would strongly suggest that this all didn't start on 7/10/23 and was in response to what's been happening in Palestine for years.

Yes. A lot of people seem to be appalled (rightly) about what happened on October 7th, while completely ignoring the 75 years of appalling treatment the Palestinians have suffered leading up to October 7th.

I'm not saying that I agree with their attack or condone it at all but what Hamas has written in their report would strongly suggest that this all didn't start on 7/10/23 and was in response to what's been happening in Palestine for years.

They can "strongly suggest" all they want, if they think that is any justification for the rape, torture and mass killing of civilians including children, babies and the elderly then they are not credible people for anyone with a brain or a moral compass to be listening to, and they are certainly not credible people to be running Gaza.

And if they had plans to lie their arses off about what they did then maybe they should have told the murderous muppets that got sent to carry out the attacks not to live stream them from their own go pros, or, in one particularly unpleasant case, from a victim's own Facebook Live.

There's obviously all the footage and reports from afterwards that the Israelis took but they just get accused of being liars, so it's useful that Hamas told on themselves that day, if absolutely disgusting.

The double standards and irony are strong in this post!

The double standards and irony are strong in this post!

Would you care to elaborate on that? Because all I'm seeing here is people gleefully leaping all over this "report" as an attempt to minimise the actual attack.

I'm not saying that it justifies 7/10. That was a horrific attack that shouldn't have happened. What I am saying is that a lot of people seem to think this war started on 7/10 but it did not and ignore the fact that the Palestinians have been suffering for years on end.

I doubt anyone who has been posting in this section for any length of time is unaware of the long, complex history of the region.

No one is minimising the attack on October 7th. We are just equally outraged by the 75 years of brutal occupation and oppression that led up to the attack. As well as the 3 months of horrendous war crimes that have came after.

I'm not sure where you get '75 years of appalling treatment' from?

From 1948 - 1967 Gaza was under the control of Egypt.
President Gamal Abdel Nasser attempted to improve the quality of life for Palestinians in the Gaza Strip by granting them free education in public schools and many worked as businessmen, merchants, mechanics, farmers, and fishermen.
He also allocated subsidies for students to enter Egyptian universities and helped create the Palestine Liberation Organization in 1964, (although the latter was more out of his desire to control Palestinian affairs than out of benevolence)

During the same time frame the West Bank (Transjordan as it was then) was under the control of Jordan.
All Palestinian refugees were given Jordanian citizenship. Although the Jordanian constitution affirms that all citizens are equal before the law, the Jordanian establishment—the so-called East Jordanians, or the population in Jordan before 1948—never fully accepted that new order.

So I would suggest that the Palestinians' grievances should not be directed totally at Israel.

Still interested to hear if anyone would be legitimising this work of fiction report if it were written by ISIS to defend their own actions. And if not, why not?

No one is minimising the attack on October 7th.

I'm not saying that it justifies 7/10.

Yes. A lot of people seem to be appalled (rightly) about what happened on October 7th, while completely ignoring ...

They can "strongly suggest" all they want, if they think that is any justification for the rape, torture and mass killing of civilians including children, babies and the elderly then they are not credible people for anyone with a brain or a moral compass to be listening to, and they are certainly not credible people to be running Gaza.
This can equally be applied to the Israeli government. Appalling atrocities have been committed on both sides. Both appear to think that their actions were/are justified. Personally, I think people should be able to realise that you cannot excuse or dismiss some atrocities and support others.* *

@Auvergne63

"This can equally be applied to the Israeli government. Appalling atrocities have been committed on both sides. Both appear to think that their actions were/are justified. Personally, I think people should be able to realise that you cannot excuse or dismiss some atrocities and support others."

+++

And tonight's award for best example of whataboutery goes to @Auvergne63.

Congratulations - but perhaps next time how about a structured fact based counter argument?

These threads are becoming so tediously predictable.

@1dayatatime Which part of what @Auvergne63 said wasn't factual?

Because it's not a counter argument just whataboutery.

It can’t be whataboutery as the thread is Israel/Hamas war. It would be if this were the horrors of Hamas (and only Hamas) thread.

There was a summit today in Brussels with the EU and other foreign ministers to discuss the peace process between Israel and Palestine. I don't know what progress was made but the Israeli foreign minister was criticised for showing a video of plans of a artificial island that could be made on the Mediterranean to house Palestinians.

Unhinged.

I wonder if the island is suggested to house the WB population and East Jerusalem, as well as Gazan. That must be a few million people?