Israel/Hamas War - Ceasefire

[Toggenburgsaregreat]

Each Saturday we are seeing demonstrations in London where people are marching with placards and calling for a ceasefire in the Hamas/Israel war.

However, it is difficult to know how the supporters of Palestine think this can be achieved? (Interestingly, no calls for Hamas to cease hostilities and return the hostages were heard - so is this really a call for unilateral disarmament?)

And who should Israel negotiate a ceasefire with? Hamas, ISIS, ISSP, The Muslim Brotherhood - all of these groups/any of these groups?

What is it the supporters of Palestine actually want?

This post sounds to me as if the poster is almost saying that it is OK for Hamas to fire rockets as they apparently cause very little in the way of civilian casualties.

Doesn’t read like that to me. Reads like they are saying does 1 Israeli death per year justify thousands of Palestinian deaths per year in retaliation. This isn’t a rhetorical, hypothetical question either. This is what is happening and has been happening for years. At some point it’s been normalised.

But what I find it very difficult to understand is that, in order to keep the Israeli civilians safe, in part from these rockets, 24000 Palestinians had to die, so far.
Is this justifiable?

I think this is what that poster is saying.

So would you be ok with someone who has attempted to murder someone being out on the streets or would you want them dealt with the same way as if they had been successful in their attempted murder? Or should they be free because they failed at their stated aim? Because Hamas have attempted to kill a whole lot more than one a year. They've just not succeeded because of Israel's defences (Iron Dome and bomb shelters). But you must know this by now because it's been mentioned several times already. It's unclear why this is so frequently being ignored by so many?

It may be what you think but I will respectfully disagree with your opinion.

Thank you.

Are not the armed settler gangs engaging in attempted murder 7x a day?

“Since the 7 October attack, the settlers, who in recent years have received hundreds of millions of dollars in state funding, have carried out more than 200 attacks on Palestinians, according to B’Tselem and Yesh Din, two human rights groups documenting attacks in the West Bank.”

”According to the United Nations, in 2023 there were, on average, three incidents of settler violence per day in the West Bank. Since 7 October that has more than doubled to seven per day on average, more than a third of them involving firearms.

“Patriarch Hafez Hureini told MEE how armed settlers had imposed a reign of terror and were seizing livestock, wrecking water tanks, smashing solar panels, bulldozing outbuildings and destroying the olive groves.”

“They bulldozed all our land with the olives and terraces, destroying everything. We dare not go even 20 metres to our land,” said Hureini.

“The settlers are taking advantage of the war [in Gaza] to seize the land. Now they rule everything round here. They block the entrances to our villages. They steal our possessions. They smash our solar panels and bulldoze agricultural buildings, trees and stone walls.”

”“We are moving around today, on Saturday, because it is Shabbat, the situation should be calmer because they [Israelis] are busy praying,” a doctor told MEE.
“Often, settlers shoot at us to prevent us from bringing aid and medical care to the villages. Sometimes the soldiers do that too. They close the roads with mobile checkpoints, so we must turn back, leaving many families without medical care,” he added.
Data from Yesh-Din has shown that between 2005 to 2022 at least 93 percent of all investigations into ideologically motivated crime in the West Bank were closed without an indictment.“
https://znetwork.org/znetarticle/with-all-eyes-on-gaza-israeli-settlers-are-waging-a-second-nakba-in-the-west-bank/

An initial surge in settler attacks predates Oct 7th, as 2023 3 attacks per day was an escalation on prior years:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/21/the-most-successful-land-grab-strategy-since-1967-as-settlers-push-bedouins-off-west-bank-territory

Didn't realise there were settlers in Gaza! Thought they left almost 20 years ago. It's almost like you're bringing up a different conflict in a different area to distract from something?

If it helps, I am all for illegal settlers being made to leave and any violent settlers, whether legal or illegal, to be incarcerated for their crimes. It's got very little to do with what's being discussed here though.

If it helps, I am all for illegal settlers being made to leave and any violent settlers, whether legal or illegal, to be incarcerated for their crimes

So you want ignore the issue of the settlers do you? Well fancy that!

I mean I’m against rockets being fired at Israel if that helps…

It’s all facets of the same conflict.

Hamas low tech rockets killing 1-2 Israeli civilians a year is on topic, but some of these self-same Israeli civilians killing a dozen Palestinian civilians a year, as well as looting and destroying their homes, driving off survivors is “very little to do with what’s being discussed”

You are missing the forest by focussing on the Hamas tree.

In that case should we also be discussing all the terrorist attacks and attempted terrorist attacks coming out of the West Bank and East Jerusalem? Or would that be considered derailing? Because if so, all of a sudden it's not just one dead Israeli per year, is it?

If you all of a sudden want to discuss the settlers then you'll have to find someone else to antagonise because I don't have much to add to that conversation on top of what I've already said.

Did I say that? No.

Yes of course we should include that. You stated as much and I did not object to it. I don’t think my wish to include settler violence outside Gaza is any more sudden than your wish to include terror attacks occurring outside Gaza.

Thank you very much. That is exactly what I meant. English is my second language so sometimes I don't express myself as clearly as I would want to.

Did I include terror attacks by people from outside of Gaza? I genuinely didn't mean to. I was referring to terror attacks by Gazan terrorists, or planned in Gaza even if executed by others. But if you want to consider the war against terrorists in Gaza as a war against all of Palestine then that's a much larger conversation. I thought the topic at hand was ceasefire in Gaza, I didn't realise it had moved on. If that's the conversation you guys want to have now instead then go at it.

Just make sure to include the updated number of Israeli deaths then, as it's higher than the previously stated 1-2.

You do realise how inflammatory it is to insist on accurate numbers of Israeli deaths when Palestinian deaths are hundreds of times higher?
It really does imply that you think an Israeli life is intrinsically worth more than a Palestinian life.

That's a disgusting accusation to make! Please edit your comment while you still can, unless you genuinely think I think that in which case I'll consider that a personal attack and report it.

The other posters were the ones discussing numbers and trying to minimise Israeli fears, I'm trying to point out how absurd that is. You clearly agree it's absurd so you should be supporting my efforts rather than throwing awful accusations my way

I thought you had moved the conversation on to violence that is attempted murder/injury within the borders of Israel and occupied territories when you posted this?

”Humdingerydoo · Yesterday 21:40
“….People seem to forget Hamas don't only fire rockets. They've also been known to send suicide bombers, stabbers, people to drive into people.... Just thankfully, a lot of them are stopped before they can cause too much damage thanks to the IDF, the Iron Dome etc. You should take into account the amount of attempted murders, which is obviously impossible…...”

It was yesterday though and I am in catch up mode.

To misquote Jane Austen, "it is an acknowledged truth on MSN that you are to put the Israeli civilians' suffering above any other's, otherwise you are simply antisemitic and pro Hamas".

I meant terrorists from Gaza committing terrorist attacks. Yes, within Israel's borders but from Gaza.

@Humdingerydoo
”Just make sure to include the updated number of Israeli deaths then, as it's higher than the previously stated 1-2.”

Sorry, but the thread had several posts linked to sources stating that Israeli deaths from Hamas rockets were 1-2 per year. Have you found something different? That was the context I repeated that figure as well- deaths specifically from Hamas rockets.

15x more Israelis have died from friendly fire from the IDF btw.

Hmm. But those terrorists are almost always from East Jerusalem or the West Bank, not Gaza. That is what has confused me then.

Yes but you're now wanting to discuss violence in all of Palestine, so not just deaths by rockets from Hamas! Make up your mind about what you want to discuss and then just let me know when you've settled on something.

Me? But you expanded the conversation to the wider Israel & Occupied territories last night. Have you changed your mind?

October 7th would be one example, and there is also a reason there is such intense security along the Gaza border.