Israel/Hamas War - Ceasefire

[Toggenburgsaregreat]

Each Saturday we are seeing demonstrations in London where people are marching with placards and calling for a ceasefire in the Hamas/Israel war.

However, it is difficult to know how the supporters of Palestine think this can be achieved? (Interestingly, no calls for Hamas to cease hostilities and return the hostages were heard - so is this really a call for unilateral disarmament?)

And who should Israel negotiate a ceasefire with? Hamas, ISIS, ISSP, The Muslim Brotherhood - all of these groups/any of these groups?

What is it the supporters of Palestine actually want?

What do you think of the fears (I have them) that the currently Israeli government won't stop bombing until only 10% of Palestinians remain in Gaza and the Israelis can "make the desert bloom"? Israel have the capability to do that today, and some of the Israeli government have stated that's what they want.

I have raised the potential for the deaths of millions as "collateral damage" to "eradicating hamas" before and got a metaphorical shoulder shrug and a "not Israels problem". That's equally dismissive, isn't it?

And I don't have Palestinian friends and family. Goodness knows what it's like for people who do.

@Toggenburgsaregreat
Put bluntly, I think that Israel still has every right to militarily occupy the West Bank but loading it with “settlers” was a tragic error on the part of Israel.

if the occupation is deemed as illegal, then no they don't. And agree about the settlers.

@AdamRyan whataboutery and dismissive of what @Humdingerydoo is trying to tell you.
Is it impossible to acknowledge what they are saying? And try to understand?

I do understand people's fears, but I don't see the same understanding back from the pro-Israeli action posters. Despite the fact the death toll in Gaza continues to climb, it's been flattened effectively, the refugee camps are being bombed, there is no healthcare. It just gets worse and worse and the bit I don't get is how people think this is going to protect Israel in the long term. Its just creating the next generation who will hate Israel for what happened to their family/friends/childhoods.

Thank you, I wasn't quite sure how to reply to that post. I was trying to work out what about my comments would make anyone think I am dismissing Palestinian worries about their futures, or about their current situation.

Not meaning to sound blunt here, but I think an appeal to fear is a way that powerful classes can justify extreme and unacceptable actions to their "enemies". We see it all the time and I hate it because it results in huge human suffering.

It's what Hitler did to the Jews. Its what Putin is doing in Donetsk. Its what the George W Bush did to Afghanistan and Iraq. And in my opinion its what Netanyahu is doing to Gaza. These people use fear and aggression to deal with their own political agendas at home.

The fear is reasonable but the play on it and the aggressive "destroy the enemy" respinse isn't. And until both sides recognise that the aggression is an ineffective response to fear it won't stop.

I fear that the ongoing bombardment and destruction of Gaza by Israel, in retaliation for the acts of Hamas, followed by numerous countries escalating action, is putting us all at risk. With that risk obviously being currently much worse for the Middle East. When is it going to end? How many more people need to die? There will need to be a diplomatic solution at some point.

@Itoosurvive

"There is a world of difference between Hamas declaring “ From the river to the sea “ and Netanyahu doing the same."

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There is absolutely no difference between either side declaring "From the river" regardless of whether that implies the extinction of the State of Israel or the Palestinian State and regardless of whether it is Netanyahu , Hamas or the protesters on the streets of London.

Both are equally unacceptable and morally repugnant. To claim that "Ah it's different when stated by the pro Palestinian side" clearly demonstrates (whether you admit it or not) either an unconscious bias or a disguised conscious bias or prejudice against the State of Israel and those people that support it's existence (in particular Jewish people).

You faux argument that only Israel is capable of delivering on this threat where as Hamas / Palestinian cause is not is not only weak but also a transparent attempt to hide your prejudice .

I could equally create an argument (not that it is relevant) that "ah but it's different when Netanyahu says it" on the basis that well Israel's main backer the US would never allow it (Biden very recently calling for a two state solution) whereas Hamas main backer Iran would support it in the destruction of Israel (Iran very recently calling for the destruction of Israel). But no doubt your self hate against Western values would bizarrely mean that you would rather trust Iran than the US.

But what is relevant is that it is equally unacceptable for either side to declare "From the river to the sea".

@AdamRyan

"And until both sides recognise that the aggression is an ineffective response to fear it won't stop."

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Naive words that sound nice and fluffy but what would you describe as an acceptable response to fear and actually be attacked? Ignoring being attacked ? An invitation to come round for tea and cakes?

The best way to respond is to ensure that Gaza is not in a position to attack Israel whilst at the same time making an economic success of the West Bank (including stopping the settlements) in order to give ordinary Palestinians an alternative path and hope for the future.

@AdamRyan I would agree to that statement if there wasn't a preceding massacre of civilians. The fear is real and to downplay it is minimising. Most people in Israel will know people either directly affected by 7/10 or the rockets coming into Israel from Hezbollah. It's not a perceived fear or imaginary. Or generated for political gain. I agree it can be harnessed but most in Israel will agree the only way forward is to eradicate Hamas. Given the circumstances.
What about Yemen, China, Armenia? Or are they not the powerful classes you are talking about?

@1dayatatime
"But what is relevant is that it is equally unacceptable for either side to declare "From the river to the sea"."

I totally agree with you, but for Hamas the phrase is popularity seeking, unachievable bluster whilst for the Israeli government it is popularity seeking and achievable.

Why are you ignoring posts saying it is achievable for Hamas? Hamas have various levels of support from multiple countries and terror groups all over the region. It is achievable and it is therefore a real fear for Israelis. Please stop ignoring it and pretending it isn't.

Hamas were able to build hundreds of miles of tunnels apparently without the UN noticing, and they were able to plan and execute the attack on 7th October. They have been able to hide hostages for over 100 days. They previously successfully hid a hostage for five years. They are more capable than you are willing to admit. Please believe us when we say you are wrong and that Hamas are a real threat.

Stop ignoring the fact that Israel and Israelis are under constant threat.

@Humdingerydoo
"Stop ignoring the fact that Israel and Israelis are under constant threat."

They are under threat, from rockets and incursions. But their existence as a nation isn't.

This is pretty impressive
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_equipment_of_the_Israel_Defense_Forces
as is the training of those who use it.

Add to that the fact that a nation fighting for its existence invariably performs well. 1967, 1973.

We will just have to agree to differ on this one.

To think that fear isn’t being used for political gain is naive and deluded.

I wonder if generational trauma means that the population of Israel are particularly and understandably more susceptible to this type of manipulation.

Every time the IDF drops a bomb on Gaza they spread the seeds of Hamas ideology like thistle seeds in the wind. I think they need saving from themselves, and the US is doing them a disservice by enabling them.

Yes, their existence as a nation is under threat. I mean, that is what it means when someone calls for the state of Israel to be eradicated. There is no other way to interpret that. "From the river too the sea, Palestine will be free" means from the river to the sea, all the land will be Palestine. That means there would be no Israel. That is a constant threat.

Hamas are supported financially as well as militarily by other actors. You can't just keep saying that isn't true until you yourself believe it. You can't pretend facts aren't real just because it suits your preferred narrative.

I can't in good conscience "agree to disagree" whether or not Israel is under threat as that's an important basis for understanding why there is war in the first place. If you don't want to understand it, it's not peace you're after. It's delegitimising Israel's reason for the war and therefore their right to fight for their existence that you're after. And if that's the case, own it.

What a fucking mess this is all turning into. All so predictable, too.

@Humdingerydoo
@Itoosurvive

"Why are you ignoring posts saying it is achievable for Hamas"

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For the simple reason that whether @Itoosurvive can see it or not she is clearly displaying either an unconscious bias or a disguised conscious bias or prejudice against the State of Israel and those people that support it's existence (in particular Jewish people).

I can easily create scenarios showing that it is achievable or unachievable for either side to cause the destruction of either the State of Israel or the Palestinian State.

I repeat that it is unacceptable and morally repugnant for either Netanyahu, Hamas or the useful idiots on protest marches in London to declare "From the river to the sea".

It is irrelevant whether either party has the ability to deliver that threat of eradication or not. Just as it would be to call for example the "eradication of all Sikhs" but then claim in my defence that it's OK to say it because I don't have the ability to deliver on that threat.

It's what happens in the new world of conviction politics where people debate on emotions, whataboutery and their facts or their truths rather than rational structured arguments based on actual facts.

No it's what happens when you have right wing war mongering governments in charge.

I wonder if generational trauma means that the population of Israel are particularly and understandably more susceptible to this type of manipulation.

Perhaps, but you're reducing Israelis to 'sheeple'. So, just maybe, it's decades of living under the threat of a constant barrage of rockets by Hamas. And it doesn't take manipulation - or even generational trauma - for Israelis to be fully aware they are surrounded by hostile countries, many of them harbouring their own terrorist organisations who basically want Jews wiped out.

Every time the IDF drops a bomb on Gaza they spread the seeds of Hamas ideology like thistle seeds in the wind

As above, you must be able to see how that works both ways?

Agree with you about the need for a diplomatic solution, and sooner rather than later before even more Palestinians are killed. However, it will need to be robust, and one that protects the security of Israelis going forward. That's going to take more than the eradication (or near-eradication) of Hamas obviously and some compromise by Israel as well, and unless Netanyahu is removed by election or otherwise, I can't see how that will happen currently.

@1dayatatime
"For the simple reason that whether @Itoosurvivecan see it or not she is clearly displaying either an unconscious bias or a disguised conscious bias or prejudice against the State of Israel and those people that support it's existence (in particular Jewish people)."

Thank you for the psychoanalysis, but you are certainly wrong on the last two assumptions. I support the existence of the state of Israel, however I am horrified, disgusted, repulsed and openly critical of the way in which the current government is carrying out its brutal and inhumane prosecution of its war.

As for people who want to support Israel's existence, I will gladly support them, as long as the Israel envisaged is prepared to treat the Palestinian people fairly. That should be relatively easy, it's just a matter of removing the murderous psychopaths that are currently running the country.

Going back to the first of your three alternatives, the above views may be as a result of an unconscious bias on my part.

Yes, their existence as a nation is under threat. I mean, that is what it means when someone calls for the state of Israel to be eradicated. There is no other way to interpret that. "From the river too the sea, Palestine will be free" means from the river to the sea, all the land will be Palestine. That means there would be no Israel. That is a constant threat.
True but Isreal (who are also well supported financially and militarily) are quite capable of defending themselves. The citizens are under threat of attacks such as on Oct 7 but I can’t see Israel itself (the country/nation however you want to describe it) being destroyed. I’m also not sure if the various Iran backed factions do actually work together or are separate organisations?
That said I do agree “From the river to the sea” is a war mongering phrase that should be avoided by both sides.

It's quite arrogant to say that just because you don't personally think Israel as a country is at risk, that it isn't. I'm quite angry at seeing more than one poster on this thread try to make that claim and completely ignore those of us who say they're wrong.

And just because a country is capable of defending themselves doesn't mean they should have to. Ukrainians are also capable of defending themselves, doesn't mean they should have to. They should be able to live in peace and quiet without constant threats to their existence.

Plus, as we saw on 7th of October, Israel isn't always able to defend themselves. Do you think it's ok for there to be several hundred civilians sacrificed every few days/weeks/months/years/however often Hamas and other terrorists or their backers decide to attack just because Israel has an army? Or do you agree that it's absurd that Israel should have to accept that any of their citizens should be murdered, maimed, raped or kidnapped just for existing?

Israelis are people too. It's upsetting that a reminder seems to be needed.

Maybe, for some, their fear overrides anything else.

Plus, as we saw on 7th of October, Israel isn't always able to defend themselves. Do you think it's ok for there to be several hundred civilians sacrificed every few days/weeks/months/years/however often Hamas and other terrorists or their backers decide to attack just because Israel has an army
I think Israel didn’t see it coming. Presumably this is not a mistake they will make again and the events of October 7 will not be repeated.

From the article linked below:

“Meanwhile, Hamas sought to convince Israel it cared more about ensuring that workers in Gaza, a narrow strip of land with more than two million residents, had access to jobs across the border and had no interest in starting a new war.
"Hamas was able to build a whole image that it was not ready for a military adventure against Israel," the source said.
Since a 2021 war with Hamas, Israel has sought to provide a basic level of economic stability in Gaza by offering incentives including thousands of permits so Gazans can work in Israel or the West Bank, where salaries in construction, agriculture or service jobs can be 10 times the level of pay in Gaza.
"We believed that the fact that they were coming in to work and bringing money into Gaza would create a certain level of calm. We were wrong," another Israeli army spokesperson said”

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/how-israel-was-duped-hamas-planned-devastating-assault-2023-10-08/