Israel/Hamas War - Ceasefire

[Toggenburgsaregreat]

Each Saturday we are seeing demonstrations in London where people are marching with placards and calling for a ceasefire in the Hamas/Israel war.

However, it is difficult to know how the supporters of Palestine think this can be achieved? (Interestingly, no calls for Hamas to cease hostilities and return the hostages were heard - so is this really a call for unilateral disarmament?)

And who should Israel negotiate a ceasefire with? Hamas, ISIS, ISSP, The Muslim Brotherhood - all of these groups/any of these groups?

What is it the supporters of Palestine actually want?

@Humdingerydoo I absolutely agree with this. Most of us don't know a reality where we have to have safe rooms and bomb shelters, we don't know the wail of the siren and the terror of not knowing if our children are ok.
People shouldn't have to live like that. For the sake of living side by side. No need for murderous intent.
And this is a recent wound for Israel. And a continuation of attacks both by rocket and terrorist.
Peace either side is in short supply. But I wouldn't deny either's pain.

Do you think it's ok for there to be several hundred civilians sacrificed every few days/weeks/months/years/however often Hamas and other terrorists or their backers decide to attack just because Israel has an army?

We can’t make progress if you can’t even acknowledge Israel’s own contributions to the ongoing, decades long cycle of death and destruction. The causes of past, current and future conflicts in the Levant cannot be boiled down to terrorists attacking “just because Israel has an army”

Out of curiosity, how many Israeli civilians have been by Hamas rockets since 07/10? I can't find a figure.

@Auvergne63 your post makes no sense so I can't address it.
And I assume your google works to answer your 'faux curiosity'?
Do you know what it likes to sit under constant rocket attack and fear?

@stomachameleon
most in Israel will agree the only way forward is to eradicate Hamas.

That is what those of us who want a ceasefire want too. The difference is that we know from the recent historical record of the war on ISIS that Israel’s current military invasion, indiscriminate destruction and killing in Gaza is not only going to fail to eradicate Hamas, it is generating more and more recruits for Hamas every day.

I am presuming of course that Israel isn’t intending genocide or ethnic cleansing. While it may be attractive to think you can stop terror groups from emerging and growing by genociding an entire ethnic group man, woman and child (like Alamek), it’s also immoral and illegal.

Presuming Israel isn’t intent on genocide, then their military actions so far and their stated strategy are wholly counterproductive as they will cause a bigger, angrier Hamas 2.0 as well as strengthening and increasing their backers internationally. They are enroute to a pyrrhic victory.

@Itoosurvive

"Thank you for the psychoanalysis, but you are certainly wrong on the last two assumptions. I support the existence of the state of Israel, however I am horrified, disgusted, repulsed and openly critical of the way in which the current government is carrying out its brutal and inhumane prosecution of its war."

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This is not psycho analysis but a simple explanation of why you think it is acceptable for the pro Palestinian side to call for the destruction of the State of Israel but not for Israel to call for the destruction of Palestinian State based purely on your opinion of the ability to deliver on that threat. But are equally unacceptable and morally repugnant.

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As for people who want to support Israel's existence, I will gladly support them, as long as the Israel envisaged is prepared to treat the Palestinian people fairly. That should be relatively easy, it's just a matter of removing the murderous psychopaths that are currently running the country "

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Taking your proviso over the right of Israel to exist so long as it treated Palestinians fair, then presumably you would not support the right of Israel to exist if it didn't treat the Palestinians fairly. And what exactly is fairly? But with this comment can you now not clearly see your conscious or unconscious bias and prejudice.

Regarding removing murderous psychopaths, as a democracy Israeli voters have a choice to decide whether they wish to change their Government or not.

However for Gazans given that Hamas has got rid of democracy and rules as a theological dictatorship the only way to remove them is through force and violence, hence the current war or do you have any alternative means for achieving this?

For example the Egyptians did ask Hamas nicely to step down but surprise surprise they declined.

I missed a word in my post. Errare humanum est.
The missing word was "killed". My google works perfectly but doesn't seem to provide me with an answer. Sorry to dash your assumption of my "faux curiosity" but this a legitimate question. So now you can address it.
Finally, I lived in Paris when the PLO perpetrated numerous terrorist attacks, especially in the metro. I have a tiny,tiny inkling on how it might feel to be under attack and not knowing if you are going to make it home alive.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-68034128

Read the last quote.

I've been out so it's probably moved on.
I think Israel would have done better to respond to the global outrage about the attacks by taking a bit of time to formulate an international response to the targeted removal of Hamas while minimising impact on Gaza.

They may then have also been able to negotiate the release of hostages.

I still think by responding immediately with military force, they've played into Hamas' hands.

Ukraine is in no way capable of defending themselves against Russian aggression, that's why they've been at war for nearly two years with a huge loss of ukrainian life, refugees etc. Ukraine is far less powerful militarily than Russia is.

The situation with Israel/Hamas is not at all comparable. I don't know why you would bring that up.

@1dayatatime

You must be confusing me with another poster. I have never said that the call for the destruction of either Gaza or Israel is acceptable.

All I have said was that for one party in the conflict the destruction of the other was a possibility, whilst for the other, not.

Humdingerydoo · Today 15:26

"It's quite arrogant to say that just because you don't personally think Israel as a country is at risk, that it isn't."

Having a point of view that differs from yours is not necessarily arrogance. It's called a counter argument.

I'm quite angry at seeing more than one poster on this thread try
to make that claim and completely ignore those of us who say they're wrong.

Up until now, your posts have been responded to. You have not been ignored, though as a suggestion, it's not a bad one.

Israelis are people too. It's upsetting that a reminder seems to be needed.
Of course they are and the sooner they get rid of their government of land grabbing, settler encouraging, far right, ultra-nationalists, the better.

They may then have also been able to negotiate the release of hostages.

@AdamRyan sorry I think that's pie in the sky. Shalit and the fact Hamas have posted recently about a body they have held for ten years should show you that.

How do you think this ends stoma? Preferably in a way that minimises loss of life for both Israelis and Palestinians.

It’s less pie in the sky than thinking military force will recover the hostages alive. Air striking and blowing up Hamas targets = endangering the hostages with Hamas. Having a “there are no uninvolved civilians” shoot first and identify the bodies second policy = escaped hostages shot by IDF (3 so far). Hostage family members have pointed out how the current military strategy recklessly endangers the hostages:

“Some families of hostages have campaigned for Israel to halt its military action in Gaza out of fear that hostages could be killed and in order to negotiate for their freedom.”

”Speaking to Army Radio, Svirsky aimed angry criticism at the government for failing to rescue her brother and the other hostages still in captivity, claiming that their decisions had put him in danger. He was shot by Hamas apparently out of their stress due to a nearby strike — the military pressure is endangering the hostages,” she said.”
https://www.timesofisrael.com/sister-of-slain-hostage-svirsky-says-he-would-be-been-better-off-killed-on-october-7/

Negotiation in this conflict freed almost half of the hostages- 110 out of 242. Of the 132 not freed, it is estimated that less than 110 are still alive.

Military force has freed zero hostages, while killing 3 escaped hostages with friendly fire (I am not including hostages killed while with Hamas)

In addition 1 in 6 IDF soldiers killed in Gaza have been killed by friendly fire (29 of 170 a/o 1 Jan 24- https://www.timesofisrael.com/idf-deaths-of-29-of-170-soldiers-in-gaza-op-were-so-called-friendly-fire-accidents/)
So the current conflict is needlessly killing too many young Israelis as well.

Military force has not pressured Hamas into releasing the hostages as they have announced that the hostages will either be released alive if there is a permanent ceasefire, or Israel will continue to recover their bodies.

Note: my linked sources are from the Times of Israel. 🇮🇱

@AdamRyan

"I still think by responding immediately with military force, they've played into Hamas' hands."

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If Israel had not responded militarily then Hamas and its supporters would have seen it as a victory and encouraged further attacks.

If Israel had responded militarily (as they did) then Hamas and its supporters have seen it as a victory and it will encourage further attacks.

Exactly. Hamas are going to attack anyway so why not minimise civilian deaths by planning how to remove them.

It wasn't an urgent danger as Hamas have had the intent for decades and usually Israeli security means they are not successful.

I think unfortunately now Israel have lost the international goodwill by taking the military action leading to the humanitarian crisis in Gaza so its all a moot point, but I believe they could have taken some time to build a joint international response which might have been a more effective way of removing Hamas.

Not all families are keen on a ceasefire. Also from the times..

www.timesofisrael.com/an-ideological-minority-of-parents-of-hostages-held-by-hamas-oppose-negotiations/

It wasn't an urgent danger

@AdamRyan I don't know how you can write that and be so flippant. In light of dragging people including babies back to Gaza. More than one terrorist organisation and normal people.

Doing something was imperative. I wonder if you would feel the same if your ten month old baby was taken? Or your daughter dragged by the hair into a jeep after being sexually assaulted?

I saw a article on the Times of Israel of families of the hostages camping outside of Netanyahus residence because they feel he is not doing enough and it said they want him to take the deal that's on the table. Does anyone know which deal that is? Was it the one Eisenkot alluded towards of the release of hostages for a one month truce?

I can see there are protests happening right now aswell and calls for a election to be held.
One thing that stuck out to me though were some of the comments under the article were saying the families of the hostages are selfish for just thinking of their loved ones and there shouldn't be a ceasefire. I personally thought that was a unfair thing to say.
Ofcourse a few comments, is not representative of what the majority think but it was still surprising to see. Maybe because I follow the hostage forum pages, which just show Israeli support for the release and not the views of those who oppose a ceasefire in exchange for a deal

It's important to remember how incredibly complicated all this is. Israel traded Gilad Shalit for 1027 prisoners. One of those prisoners was Sinwah, the man largely responsible for the attack on 7th October. I think a lot of people are worried about who might be released next. In some people's minds, Israel ended up trading one soldier and in return ended up with over a thousand dead Israelis, a couple of hundred more hostages and I don't know how many maimed or otherwise injured. I'm not saying this is right, but if people are willing to be understanding of how Palestinians can turn to extremism you should have the same understanding for Israelis.

Again, not reflective of my own opinions. Just trying to explain how others might come to a different conclusion.

Slightly off topic but is this cultural / religious or just individual family values do you think?
What is the religious teaching on this in the Jewish faith about hostages and prisoners?

@Kindatired I think @Humdingerydoo hit the nail on the head. Some people won't believe they are alive (there is no proof of life) some will think of the bigger picture and not want to capitulate. Many will not want prisons emptied because of who they view is in them... (murderers)
I have seen articles where some people want them released for Israel then to flatten Gaza with them in it. (I do not hold this view clearly)

Some families it's religious. Some more principle.

I don't know how you can repeatedly wrote posts demanding empathy for Israelis whilst simultaneously ignoring the horror Palestinians are living through and supporting the Israeli government. I find the dismissive tone towards tens of thousands dead, 2 million displaced and hundreds of thousands starving flippant too. Each to their own.