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Conflict in the Middle East

Israel/Hamas War - Ceasefire

920 replies

Toggenburgsaregreat · 15/01/2024 10:01

Each Saturday we are seeing demonstrations in London where people are marching with placards and calling for a ceasefire in the Hamas/Israel war.

However, it is difficult to know how the supporters of Palestine think this can be achieved? (Interestingly, no calls for Hamas to cease hostilities and return the hostages were heard - so is this really a call for unilateral disarmament?)

And who should Israel negotiate a ceasefire with? Hamas, ISIS, ISSP, The Muslim Brotherhood - all of these groups/any of these groups?

What is it the supporters of Palestine actually want?

OP posts:
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82
MissyB1 · 19/01/2024 16:19

stomachameleon · 19/01/2024 15:36

From the former Saudi Ambassador...

Yes I get his point and do agree in principle, but I’m not sure that would work in reality. In N Ireland all parties had to be included - no matter what they had done to each other.

ScrollingLeaves · 19/01/2024 16:52

Humdingerydoo · 19/01/2024 08:30

While I disagree with Netanyahu on almost everything and I vehemently disagree with his stance on this in particular, I just wanted to point out that Hamas have been calling for the eradication of the state of Israel. So there's no need to try and make out as though this kind of rhetoric is one-sided.

No, but if when anyone says ‘From the river to the sea Palestinians should be free’, they are said to be terrorist champions calling for the extinction of Israel, why would Netanyahus saying, from the river to the sea Israel must be in control not seen as calling for the extinction of Palestine/no Palestinian State?

Especially since Israel has been physically destroying so much of Gaza and settling in so much of the West Bank as if to back up exactly what Netanyahu is saying?

stomachameleon · 19/01/2024 17:32

@1dayatatime Israel can change its leadership there are mechanisms for that in democracy.

Gaza has to change its whole political system and weed out militant Islam.

Letting the UEA and Saudi Arabia have full involvement in the future of Gaza will be a interesting where Qatar are concerned.

1dayatatime · 19/01/2024 17:37

@ScrollingLeaves

"No, but if when anyone says ‘From the river to the sea Palestinians should be free’, they are said to be terrorist champions calling for the extinction of Israel, why would Netanyahus saying, from the river to the sea Israel must be in control not seen as calling for the extinction of Palestine/no Palestinian State?"

++++

You could enter into semantics about what exactly does "free" mean versus what does "in control" mean.

But I think the easiest way answer to "From the river to the sea Palestine must be free" versus "From the river to the sea Israel must be in control" is one side is calling for the extinction of the State of Israel and the other is calling for the extinction of the Palestinian State.

Oh and the latter doesn't rhyme.

Polka83 · 19/01/2024 18:05

Ehud Olmert, former PM Israel giving his views of what a 2 state solution would look like on BBC radio 4 today -at 17.37
If there is going to be 2 state solution that could be accepted by Palestinians- this sounds like a reasonable approach. Calls for pragmatism on all sides.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/live:bbc_radio_fourfm?partner=uk.co.bbc&origin=share-mobile

Radio 4 - Listen Live - BBC Sounds

Listen live to BBC Radio 4 on BBC Sounds

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/live:bbc_radio_fourfm?partner=uk.co.bbc&origin=share-mobile

lovelysoap · 19/01/2024 19:21

Hamas broke the last two ceasefires, just saying.

Humdingerydoo · 19/01/2024 20:34

ScrollingLeaves · 19/01/2024 16:52

No, but if when anyone says ‘From the river to the sea Palestinians should be free’, they are said to be terrorist champions calling for the extinction of Israel, why would Netanyahus saying, from the river to the sea Israel must be in control not seen as calling for the extinction of Palestine/no Palestinian State?

Especially since Israel has been physically destroying so much of Gaza and settling in so much of the West Bank as if to back up exactly what Netanyahu is saying?

You seem to have completely misinterpreted my post.

But also, anyone saying "from the river to the sea" is problematic. Doesn't matter who says it. It's a threat.

stomachameleon · 19/01/2024 21:13

There is a big difference in saying you want control of something because of security risks that have already occurred
And
Freeing yourselves completely of another country and demanding their eradication. Getting rid of Israel.

Once again
Palestine has been offered a two state solution many times and refused.
Hamas have just committed a massacre.
They are holding hostages including a baby.
They are committed to more massacres.

I Don't think that's complicated

PeasfullPerson · 19/01/2024 21:36

It’s understandable why Israel would want control over Gaza.

However, the Israeli government is committing war crimes, and most likely genocide, which makes them an incredibly poor candidate for this role!

Even before October 7th there were human rights issues.

This is not an answer that works to protect both the people of Israel and Palestine.

Tripper79 · 19/01/2024 21:42

PeasfullPerson · 19/01/2024 21:36

It’s understandable why Israel would want control over Gaza.

However, the Israeli government is committing war crimes, and most likely genocide, which makes them an incredibly poor candidate for this role!

Even before October 7th there were human rights issues.

This is not an answer that works to protect both the people of Israel and Palestine.

I agree with this. Israel having security control over Gaza might protect Israel but who will protect the Palestinians from the Israeli government and the IDF?

ScrollingLeaves · 19/01/2024 22:10

stomachameleon · 19/01/2024 21:13

There is a big difference in saying you want control of something because of security risks that have already occurred
And
Freeing yourselves completely of another country and demanding their eradication. Getting rid of Israel.

Once again
Palestine has been offered a two state solution many times and refused.
Hamas have just committed a massacre.
They are holding hostages including a baby.
They are committed to more massacres.

I Don't think that's complicated

Palestine has been offered a two state solution many times and refused

I am not very clear on the exact history and the context of the offers and refusals you are referring to, but mightn’t it be worth trying again when this part of the war stops?

The reason for not offering it again at present is not fear of refusal anyway.

ScrollingLeaves · 19/01/2024 22:24

Here are Netanyahu's exact words as I had been paraphrasing.
In the future, the state of Israel has to control the entire area..from the river to the sea

Humdingerydoo, I apologise if I had misunderstood what you had meant earlier. I agree it does not matter who says ‘From the river to the sea…’, it will be felt as a threat either way.

stomachameleon · 19/01/2024 22:48

@ScrollingLeaves I would under specific conditions.

showmethegin · 19/01/2024 23:00

The conversation here has moved on somewhat but the idea that people going on the ceasefire marches are brain dead, anti semitic, thick idiots is so unbelievably offensive and untrue.

I'm part of a group currently raising funds for medical aid in Palestine and organising. We have Jewish people in our group, Muslim people, people who have been involved in the work for decades. We march because more than 10,000 children are dead. That thousands of children have lost their whole families, that children are having limbs amputated with no anaesthesia. It is abhorrent and being carried out by a so called democracy.

We have conversations ALL THE TIME about the horrors of Hamas and how they can be gotten rid of, how the hostages can be released. The reason we march in support of Palestine is because of all this and because our government is supporting this massacre. We don't need to shout about the hostages because our government is already supporting this effort.

anotherlevel · 19/01/2024 23:10

showmethegin · 19/01/2024 23:00

The conversation here has moved on somewhat but the idea that people going on the ceasefire marches are brain dead, anti semitic, thick idiots is so unbelievably offensive and untrue.

I'm part of a group currently raising funds for medical aid in Palestine and organising. We have Jewish people in our group, Muslim people, people who have been involved in the work for decades. We march because more than 10,000 children are dead. That thousands of children have lost their whole families, that children are having limbs amputated with no anaesthesia. It is abhorrent and being carried out by a so called democracy.

We have conversations ALL THE TIME about the horrors of Hamas and how they can be gotten rid of, how the hostages can be released. The reason we march in support of Palestine is because of all this and because our government is supporting this massacre. We don't need to shout about the hostages because our government is already supporting this effort.

This 100%

Itoosurvive · 19/01/2024 23:22

ScrollingLeaves · 19/01/2024 22:24

Here are Netanyahu's exact words as I had been paraphrasing.
In the future, the state of Israel has to control the entire area..from the river to the sea

Humdingerydoo, I apologise if I had misunderstood what you had meant earlier. I agree it does not matter who says ‘From the river to the sea…’, it will be felt as a threat either way.

There is a world of difference between Hamas declaring “ From the river to the sea “ and Netanyahu doing the same.

Hamas, with the declared aim of eradicating what it calls “The Zionist state” have absolutely no chance whatsoever of achieving its goals and they and every other sane person knows it. It is simply bluster and rhetoric to garner support from Palestinians. Although they are a brutal, inhumane and murderous group, what Hamas may want (river to the sea) and what Hamas are capable of achieving, are light years apart.

They are up against one of the best equipped, best trained armies which can, if it wishes, call upon nuclear weapons. Israel also has the backing of the Americans. There is no prospect of Hamas eliminating Israel. The very worst that they have managed to achieve is to infiltrate a dozen or so kilometres for a few hours and carry out horrific and barbaric acts. This resulted in them being beaten back and pummelled with the explosive equivalent of two nuclear warheads, over the next three months.

Compare pictures of Tel Aviv with those of Gaza City and tell me that Hamas is on the verge of wiping out Israel.

Neither Hamas nor Hezbollah nor an alliance of the two will eradicate Israel. Israel is simply too strong and has too many very powerful allies. Those days in 1967 and 1973 when Israel could have faced extinction from the armies of Egypt and Syria are long gone.

On the other hand, it would be perfectly possible, militarily, for Israel to annex, occupy and take over whatever land it wants and so “From the river to the sea” when spoken by Netanyahu is a real possibility. And that is what is so frightening.

One has to hope that the international community will not allow it.

lettherebepeaceintheworld · 20/01/2024 00:17

Itoosurvive · 19/01/2024 23:22

There is a world of difference between Hamas declaring “ From the river to the sea “ and Netanyahu doing the same.

Hamas, with the declared aim of eradicating what it calls “The Zionist state” have absolutely no chance whatsoever of achieving its goals and they and every other sane person knows it. It is simply bluster and rhetoric to garner support from Palestinians. Although they are a brutal, inhumane and murderous group, what Hamas may want (river to the sea) and what Hamas are capable of achieving, are light years apart.

They are up against one of the best equipped, best trained armies which can, if it wishes, call upon nuclear weapons. Israel also has the backing of the Americans. There is no prospect of Hamas eliminating Israel. The very worst that they have managed to achieve is to infiltrate a dozen or so kilometres for a few hours and carry out horrific and barbaric acts. This resulted in them being beaten back and pummelled with the explosive equivalent of two nuclear warheads, over the next three months.

Compare pictures of Tel Aviv with those of Gaza City and tell me that Hamas is on the verge of wiping out Israel.

Neither Hamas nor Hezbollah nor an alliance of the two will eradicate Israel. Israel is simply too strong and has too many very powerful allies. Those days in 1967 and 1973 when Israel could have faced extinction from the armies of Egypt and Syria are long gone.

On the other hand, it would be perfectly possible, militarily, for Israel to annex, occupy and take over whatever land it wants and so “From the river to the sea” when spoken by Netanyahu is a real possibility. And that is what is so frightening.

One has to hope that the international community will not allow it.

You have no idea what Hamas and their supporters are capable of doing. The risk cannot be taken.

Toggenburgsaregreat · 20/01/2024 06:20

@showmethegin "We don't need to shout about the hostages because our government is already supporting this effort."

Just for clarification, which government do you refer to?

OP posts:
Toggenburgsaregreat · 20/01/2024 06:38

@ScrollingLeaves "Palestine has been offered a two state solution many times and refused"

From 2000 into early 2001, Israel offered successively better deals that would have given the Palestinians more than 90% of the West Bank, all of Gaza and a shared capital in Jerusalem. Arafat, being offered what anyone rational supporter of a two state solution would have considered acceptable, responded by destroying the negotiations and starting the 1st intifada.
Arafat could not make a deal. Both American and Israeli negotiators-as well as Arab participants and observers - confirm this reality.
Anwar Sadat‘s daughter was a witness to all of this, and said Arafat had spit on her father’s grave. Apologists for Palestinian leadership will claim that the deal would’ve left them with a country that was like “Swiss cheese.“ That is incorrect
.
By late 2000 and certainly by 2001 at Taba, the proposals for Palestinian territory were primarily swaths of uninterrupted land. “Maps” showing otherwise are either entirely fictitious or represent very early offers. They also were essentially (and repulsively) going to be allowed to have an “Jew free“ state.

It was the failure at Taba Summit 2001 (in Egypt) in particular which was instrumental in moving Israel’s population substantially to the right. It became apparent to many that there would be no two states solution acceptable to Palestinian leadership, and that their only “acceptable” solution is a one state solution where the Arabs control the entire area from “the river to the sea.“
The two state is in a coma, though the current situation is also untenable, and I don’t believe there will be a two state solution until such time as the entire region is stable (which includes Syria, Iran and the elimination of the threat of Hezbollah, Hamas, and the Houthis and a paradigm shift occurs that incentives Palestinians and Israelis to accept, not just peaceful but cooperative relations.

Time is not on the side of two states solution. I think it’s theoretically possible, but I don’t see the mechanism in place now for its creation.

The PLO was founded several years before the Six Day War during which Israel asserted complete control over the West Bank and Gaza.
What was the PLO trying to liberate prior to 1967? Additionally, though Egypt and Jordan both eventually made a cold peace with Israel, they refused to take back sovereignty over the West Bank (Jordan) and the Gaza Strip (Egypt).
The actual proper peace would have been for Jordan to take the West Bank back in return for normalized relations - but that was forbidden by the promises made to the Arab League.

At some point, the Arab states have to be held accountable for these intentional acts to create an occupation nightmare and the Israelis have to be accountable for being foolish enough to turn a military occupation into a colonial project.

Put bluntly, I think that Israel still has every right to militarily occupy the West Bank but loading it with “settlers” was a tragic error on the part of Israel.

We cannot dial back the clock and make Jordan accept what it considered its sovereign territory (the West Bank) for peace nor can we undo Israel’s mistakes in turning a military occupation of necessity into a colonial project.

No easy answers.

OP posts:
showmethegin · 20/01/2024 08:17

Toggenburgsaregreat · 20/01/2024 06:20

@showmethegin "We don't need to shout about the hostages because our government is already supporting this effort."

Just for clarification, which government do you refer to?

Our government; the British government

Humdingerydoo · 20/01/2024 08:34

showmethegin · 19/01/2024 23:00

The conversation here has moved on somewhat but the idea that people going on the ceasefire marches are brain dead, anti semitic, thick idiots is so unbelievably offensive and untrue.

I'm part of a group currently raising funds for medical aid in Palestine and organising. We have Jewish people in our group, Muslim people, people who have been involved in the work for decades. We march because more than 10,000 children are dead. That thousands of children have lost their whole families, that children are having limbs amputated with no anaesthesia. It is abhorrent and being carried out by a so called democracy.

We have conversations ALL THE TIME about the horrors of Hamas and how they can be gotten rid of, how the hostages can be released. The reason we march in support of Palestine is because of all this and because our government is supporting this massacre. We don't need to shout about the hostages because our government is already supporting this effort.

I personally struggle with the fact that the demonstrations and marches started October 8. I'm not going to blame you for that or demand you explain why they did that as you sound like someone who marches with good intentions, but lots of people don't which so often gets ignored. It feels a bit like gaslighting to be constantly told we're imagining that lots of marchers are more anti-Israel than pro-Palestinian.

Humdingerydoo · 20/01/2024 08:41

Itoosurvive · 19/01/2024 23:22

There is a world of difference between Hamas declaring “ From the river to the sea “ and Netanyahu doing the same.

Hamas, with the declared aim of eradicating what it calls “The Zionist state” have absolutely no chance whatsoever of achieving its goals and they and every other sane person knows it. It is simply bluster and rhetoric to garner support from Palestinians. Although they are a brutal, inhumane and murderous group, what Hamas may want (river to the sea) and what Hamas are capable of achieving, are light years apart.

They are up against one of the best equipped, best trained armies which can, if it wishes, call upon nuclear weapons. Israel also has the backing of the Americans. There is no prospect of Hamas eliminating Israel. The very worst that they have managed to achieve is to infiltrate a dozen or so kilometres for a few hours and carry out horrific and barbaric acts. This resulted in them being beaten back and pummelled with the explosive equivalent of two nuclear warheads, over the next three months.

Compare pictures of Tel Aviv with those of Gaza City and tell me that Hamas is on the verge of wiping out Israel.

Neither Hamas nor Hezbollah nor an alliance of the two will eradicate Israel. Israel is simply too strong and has too many very powerful allies. Those days in 1967 and 1973 when Israel could have faced extinction from the armies of Egypt and Syria are long gone.

On the other hand, it would be perfectly possible, militarily, for Israel to annex, occupy and take over whatever land it wants and so “From the river to the sea” when spoken by Netanyahu is a real possibility. And that is what is so frightening.

One has to hope that the international community will not allow it.

I think it's quite naive to think Hamas wouldn't be able to one day achieve their goals of eradicating Israel and the people within it. Hamas have a lot of support in the region who may very well one day decide to take the risk and help them out. It is a real possibility so dismissing it means you're minimising the fears of millions of people and means you're not understanding what is currently happening in Israel. Without understanding there will only be more hatred and an even longer wait for peace. You can't just dismiss the fears of millions of people and pretend they're not real.

Parkingt111 · 20/01/2024 08:44

I know that Netanyahu has always denied this but I saw it mentioned again yesterday. From what I remember he was accused of the same by some within Israel too that he propped up Hamas in a bid to weaken the PA and to use as a excuse and hinder any path towards a two state solution. This was said yesterday by the EU chief:
"Yes, Hamas was financed by the government of Israel in an attempt to weaken the Palestinian Authority led by Fatah,"