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Conflict in the Middle East

Catastrophic hunger - 40% of Gaza's population at risk of famine

408 replies

Createaplant · 30/12/2023 17:13

Being reported by the Guardian:

40% of Gaza’s population is at risk of famine, the United Nations Relief and Works Agency said on Saturday.

“Every day is a struggle for survival, finding food and water,” the UN agency for Palestinian refugees added.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2023/dec/30/israel-gaza-war-live-hamas-palestinians-khan-younis-deaths-un-aid-us#:~:text=40%25%20of%20Gaza's%20population%20is,is%20grappling%20with%20catastrophic%20hunger.

Too sad and completely unnecessary. If only adequate aid, food and water was allowed in.

Catastrophic hunger - 40% of Gaza's population at risk of famine
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LemonyTicket · 04/04/2024 18:01

NerdWhoEatsMedlar · 04/04/2024 16:29

People are peeved with you @LemonyTicket because you have essentially spent the day doubling down that recreating Minnesota Starvation Experiment in Gaza is a good idea. It may be because you data analysis is weak but many tried to point out your error and yet again you doubled down.

Even COGAT says that there are only enough calories in Gaza if there is local food production and use of preexisting stockpiles.

No. You are outright lying.

I think a "good idea" would be for Hamas to return the hostages, have a ceasefire and everyone to be fed. As that option isn't available, I think a "good idea" would be to focus on examining the hunger problem and solving it.

What many seem to think is a "good idea" is instead using hungry children as a weapon to express their prejudice.

And I will think you find that I did not make an error in data analysis. As I said originally, 700g of food per day, per person is accurate. What I did was miss a word out when reading an article by the British government, and when someone pointed it out, I IMMEDIATELY corrected myself. And certainly did not "double down".

I stand by the fact that no one is starving to death on 700g of food a day. If they did, I'd be dead!

Dulra · 04/04/2024 18:03

LemonyTicket · 04/04/2024 17:49

I have read what the WFP have said. They released a report on it last week and I read it carefully. They I quote from the report, linked below and with my questions / comments in bold:

Famine – even in northern Gaza – can be halted if full access is facilitated for aid organizations to provide food, water, nutrition products, medicines, health and sanitation services, at scale, to the entire civilian population. For this to be possible, a humanitarian ceasefire is necessary.

So they are saying they need a ceasefire here. Which unfortunately is not really in Israel's power to provide. Hamas can provide this, at any time, by simply returning the hostages and ceasing fighting.

WFP estimates that simply addressing the basic food needs will require at least 300 trucks to enter Gaza every day and distribute food, especially in the north. WFP has only managed to take nine convoys to the north since the start of the year

So they are saying they need 300 trucks a day of food - I have seen conflicting claims from other NGOs (including the UN!) saying they need "at least 500", so the situation seems mired in very conflicting reports on this. Hence I took the time to go and try and work out for myself what the actual truth was. The issue with this conflict, compared to others, is that people - even respected organisations - frequently use hyperbole for the simple reason that they are politicised.

The latest of these, on Sunday night, involved 18 truckloads of food supplies delivered by WFP to Gaza City. The convoy, the second to use a coordinated route into Gaza City and the north, delivered some 274 metric tons of wheat flour, food parcels and ready-to-eat rations. This route needs to be made available for daily convoys and safe access to the north.

Dispatching aid to the north of Gaza needs day-to-day approvals from Israeli authorities. During the long waits at the Wadi Gaza checkpoint, truck convoys face looting and are frequently turned back. If they do get through, there is a high risk of more looting along the difficult route north.

WFP and our partners have food supplies ready, at the border and in the region, to feed all 2.2 million people across Gaza -- but moving food into and within Gaza is like trying to navigate a maze, with obstacles at every turn,” said WFP Deputy Executive Director and Chief Operating Officer, Carl Skau. “The complicated border controls, combined with the high tensions and desperation inside Gaza, make it nearly impossible for food supplies to reach people in need, particularly in the north. But the delivery of 18 trucks of food on Sunday shows that it can be done. This cannot be a one-off, but this needs to be sustained, regular and at scale to support those in need.”

So what they're saying is that getting trucks through takes too long and trucks are frequently turned back, that delivering food is unsafe and that there is a "high risk" of looting. So the problem is not just quantity, it is that once the food is inside it is hard to get it to people and there is a high risk of it being stolen!

To provide the necessary response, WFP and its humanitarian partners need Israel to provide more entry points into Gaza, direct access via crossings in the north, and the use of Ashdod port in Israel to bring in food aid. Sustained road access – both into Gaza and then within Gaza - is critical because other options, such as airdrops, cannot deliver the volume of aid urgently needed to avert imminent famine. Above all, a ceasefire is urgently needed for WFP and the humanitarian community to roll out a massive relief operation reaching all the communities in need.

So it sounds like what THEY are saying is that it's not ALL "ISRAEL IS STARVING PEOPLE", but actually a far more complex issue where the facts are far less black and white than that. It sounds like they are saying that a ceasefire is the only way of solving the problem, and that is not a one-sided decision. In fact, Hamas, as the actually GOVERNMENT of Gaza are actually far more responsible for the lives of their people than Israel is. They are also far more responsible than Israel is for ensuring food is delivered safely to people - but it certainly sounds like they -and possibly other armed groups - are actually stealing the food!

So please, do not tell me I am "not interested", I am very interested. What I am not interested in is starving people being used as a stick to portray Israel as evil when they are fighting against people who refuse to surrender or give their hostages back, and who are evidently "highly likely" to steal any bloody food that gets in!

https://www.wfp.org/news/famine-imminent-northern-gaza-new-report-warns#:~:text=Dispatching%20aid%20to%20the%20north,along%20the%20difficult%20route%20north.

So they are saying they need 300 trucks a day of food - I have seen conflicting claims from other NGOs (including the UN!) saying they need "at least 500", so the situation seems mired in very conflicting reports on this. Hence I took the time to go and try and work out for myself what the actual truth was. The issue with this conflict, compared to others, is that people - even respected organisations - frequently use hyperbole for the simple reason that they are politicised
Yes you are right the whole thing has been politicised by the NGOs, people aren't starving, enough aid is getting through and it is being distributed easily and without issues.

So it sounds like what THEY are saying is that it's not ALL "ISRAEL IS STARVING PEOPLE", but actually a far more complex issue where the facts are far less black and white than that. It sounds like they are saying that a ceasefire is the only way of solving the problem, and that is not a one-sided decision.
They have made no secret of the fact that they want a humanitarian ceasefire to allow aid to get through they have been calling for this from the beginning why is this news to you? And yes a ceasefire needs to be agreed by both sides. Of course it's complex, distributing humanitarian aid in a war zone is hardly going to be anything but.

In fact, Hamas, as the actually GOVERNMENT of Gaza are actually far more responsible for the lives of their people than Israel is. They are also far more responsible than Israel is for ensuring food is delivered safely to people - but it certainly sounds like they -and possibly other armed groups - are actually stealing the food!
Israel is not providing the aid the rest of the world is they just need a safe way of getting it through. Israel control the borders so are responsible for getting it in and as an occupying force Israel are responsible for ensuring Palestinians get aid. Hamas as we all know are not to be relied upon they are considered by most countries to be an illegal terrorist organisation, we rightly expect more from Israel than them

LemonyTicket · 04/04/2024 18:05

This is not grass. This is Mulukhiyah, a delicious dish that my family eat all the time. It's very traditional for Muslims to eat it at the start of Ramanan and considering what a bugger it is to make, I am amazed people had the resources in a war to do it. The reason I question data, is exactly because people say and spread complete nonsense like this.

Dulra · 04/04/2024 18:11

LemonyTicket · 04/04/2024 18:01

No. You are outright lying.

I think a "good idea" would be for Hamas to return the hostages, have a ceasefire and everyone to be fed. As that option isn't available, I think a "good idea" would be to focus on examining the hunger problem and solving it.

What many seem to think is a "good idea" is instead using hungry children as a weapon to express their prejudice.

And I will think you find that I did not make an error in data analysis. As I said originally, 700g of food per day, per person is accurate. What I did was miss a word out when reading an article by the British government, and when someone pointed it out, I IMMEDIATELY corrected myself. And certainly did not "double down".

I stand by the fact that no one is starving to death on 700g of food a day. If they did, I'd be dead!

I think a "good idea" would be for Hamas to return the hostages, have a ceasefire and everyone to be fed. As that option isn't available, I think a "good idea" would be to focus on examining the hunger problem and solving it.
Don't you think the humanitarian organisations are trying to "solve" it but are getting blocked by Israel at every turn. You make it sound like everyone is sitting on their hands with no clue what to do. Also provision of humanitarian aid cannot be used as a negotiating tool that would be a war crime. Absolutely the hostages need to be released but providing humanitarian aid is seperate to that.

What many seem to think is a "good idea" is instead using hungry children as a weapon to express their prejudice.
What a new low can you point out the posters that are doing that? You seem hell bent on trying to prove Israel is doing no wrong so I would suggest you are trying to deny there are any starving children at all despite the numerous evidence presented to you

EasterIssland · 04/04/2024 18:11

Few kids have died of eating animal food

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-68239320.amp

https://www.palestinechronicle.com/israels-siege-on-gaza-children-die-from-starvation-get-poisoned-by-animal-feed/

tbh @LemonyTicket after your comment yesterday saying that Islamophobia doesn’t exist because you don’t see it I can understand you don’t believe there is famine because you don’t see it either.
There is no point arguing with you. You’re right. We are wrong. so are many international organisations that have said “Israel is starving Gaza”.

LemonyTicket · 04/04/2024 18:14

Dulra · 04/04/2024 18:03

So they are saying they need 300 trucks a day of food - I have seen conflicting claims from other NGOs (including the UN!) saying they need "at least 500", so the situation seems mired in very conflicting reports on this. Hence I took the time to go and try and work out for myself what the actual truth was. The issue with this conflict, compared to others, is that people - even respected organisations - frequently use hyperbole for the simple reason that they are politicised
Yes you are right the whole thing has been politicised by the NGOs, people aren't starving, enough aid is getting through and it is being distributed easily and without issues.

So it sounds like what THEY are saying is that it's not ALL "ISRAEL IS STARVING PEOPLE", but actually a far more complex issue where the facts are far less black and white than that. It sounds like they are saying that a ceasefire is the only way of solving the problem, and that is not a one-sided decision.
They have made no secret of the fact that they want a humanitarian ceasefire to allow aid to get through they have been calling for this from the beginning why is this news to you? And yes a ceasefire needs to be agreed by both sides. Of course it's complex, distributing humanitarian aid in a war zone is hardly going to be anything but.

In fact, Hamas, as the actually GOVERNMENT of Gaza are actually far more responsible for the lives of their people than Israel is. They are also far more responsible than Israel is for ensuring food is delivered safely to people - but it certainly sounds like they -and possibly other armed groups - are actually stealing the food!
Israel is not providing the aid the rest of the world is they just need a safe way of getting it through. Israel control the borders so are responsible for getting it in and as an occupying force Israel are responsible for ensuring Palestinians get aid. Hamas as we all know are not to be relied upon they are considered by most countries to be an illegal terrorist organisation, we rightly expect more from Israel than them

Right, so some NGOs saying at least 500 trucks are needed and some are saying at least 300 is the NGO's getting it 100% right. Spot on.

And I am sure it's allllll meanie Israel's fault and absolutely nothing to do with the gunmen stealing the aid from their own people.

Grand :) Glad we cleared that up. You should work at the UN.

LemonyTicket · 04/04/2024 18:16

EasterIssland · 04/04/2024 18:11

Few kids have died of eating animal food

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-68239320.amp

https://www.palestinechronicle.com/israels-siege-on-gaza-children-die-from-starvation-get-poisoned-by-animal-feed/

tbh @LemonyTicket after your comment yesterday saying that Islamophobia doesn’t exist because you don’t see it I can understand you don’t believe there is famine because you don’t see it either.
There is no point arguing with you. You’re right. We are wrong. so are many international organisations that have said “Israel is starving Gaza”.

I have never in my life said Islamophobia didn't exist. In fact I talked at length about how bad it has been. I said it was not the pressing issue facing the country at this moment which is caught in an extreme wave of antisemitism, and that it is Jewish businesses being targeted, Jewish people afraid to go out and anti Jewish signs and displays all over the streets each weekend. You should apologise and ask for your revolting comment to be removed.

Auvergne63 · 04/04/2024 18:20

LemonyTicket · 04/04/2024 18:05

This is not grass. This is Mulukhiyah, a delicious dish that my family eat all the time. It's very traditional for Muslims to eat it at the start of Ramanan and considering what a bugger it is to make, I am amazed people had the resources in a war to do it. The reason I question data, is exactly because people say and spread complete nonsense like this.

Maybe, just maybe the photo is to illustrate what they should be eating instead of grass? Would you prefer to have a picture of a child, eating grass, looking emaciated?
Who says this picture date to the beginning of this Ramadan? Could it be a library picture?
The reason I question data, is exactly because people say and spread complete nonsense like this.
You didn't question data. You made assumptions.
You still haven't provided any evidence to support your claims that no famine is happening. Why is that?

Dulra · 04/04/2024 18:20

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

LemonyTicket · 04/04/2024 18:23

Dulra · 04/04/2024 16:16

So there was miscalculation with your figures which is why I queried it because your confidence that there was enough aid getting through contradicted everything else I have read and heard on the current situation.

You seem very angry about that and are trying to attack me for pointing out facts you don't like because they mean the problem might be more than just Israel's fault.
I wasn't "very angry" I was just trying to work out the truth and I certainly wasn't attacking you!
And I do think the difficulty with the distribution of aid is the IDF and Israeli governments fault as do the UN, ICJ, EU, UK, WHO if what statements I've read from them are accurate. My local MEP returned from the region a few weeks ago and was very vocal about the issues with aid getting through and issues with distribution.

No one starves to death with 700g of food a day. No one is eating grass (which is one of the more crazy posts I have seen). Unless, the food is not getting to them.
Children and babies are though! I also think it is unrealistic to expect the aid that is getting through to be distributed evenly. Yes looting occurs which is the case in all areas where people are desperate, the fittest are mobile and can get to the distribution points easier, the roads are in bits so it is extremely difficult to get aid to certain areas. The IDF will not allow communication systems on the aid trucks so logistics is an issue. Many organisations that distribute aid are pulling out because their safety is not guaranteed. UNWRA the best placed organisation to distribute aid is unable to do so. So many are not getting the 700g of food a day. Include in that those that are sick and dying but unable to getting access to medical supplies. I have not heard anyone from anywhere claim it is not a humanitarian disaster

I think what you have put across is likely to be a much more accurate picture of what the problem is. I completely agree it's a humanitarian disaster. I am in no doubt that some people are not getting what they should be getting and would like to see it solved. This is a more sensible assessment than many NGOs have made. I have never seen a humanitarian crisis before where the world seems more interested in their own agenda than the actual crisis.

NerdWhoEatsMedlar · 04/04/2024 18:24

I stand by the fact that no one is starving to death on 700g of food a day.

The Food and Agriculture Organization of the United Nations (FAO) disagree with you.

My 22kg dog disagrees with you, that's only one and three quarters can of dog food.

COGAT disagrees with you.

Every NGO disagrees with you.

The UK Government disagrees with you.

I disagree with you. Would you like to launch another personal attack calling me an outright liar?

LemonyTicket · 04/04/2024 18:24

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Ah of course! The Jew on the payroll! How original!

Auvergne63 · 04/04/2024 18:27

LemonyTicket · 04/04/2024 18:16

I have never in my life said Islamophobia didn't exist. In fact I talked at length about how bad it has been. I said it was not the pressing issue facing the country at this moment which is caught in an extreme wave of antisemitism, and that it is Jewish businesses being targeted, Jewish people afraid to go out and anti Jewish signs and displays all over the streets each weekend. You should apologise and ask for your revolting comment to be removed.

Your post is beyond understanding. I, frankly, have had enough. I will not engage with you anymore, simply because I do not engage with people who see what they want to see, despite verified evidence from various sources. I thought critical thinking was a must for any scholar. Obviously, I was wrong.

EasterIssland · 04/04/2024 18:29

LemonyTicket · 04/04/2024 18:24

Ah of course! The Jew on the payroll! How original!

Where has the poster mentioned anything related with being Jewish?

Dulra · 04/04/2024 18:31

LemonyTicket · 04/04/2024 18:24

Ah of course! The Jew on the payroll! How original!

Fgs I said it because you are defending the Israeli government so thoroughly I would want to be paid for that! and I actually have no idea what your ethnicity or faith is, do you know mine?

LemonyTicket · 04/04/2024 18:32

Dulra · 04/04/2024 18:11

I think a "good idea" would be for Hamas to return the hostages, have a ceasefire and everyone to be fed. As that option isn't available, I think a "good idea" would be to focus on examining the hunger problem and solving it.
Don't you think the humanitarian organisations are trying to "solve" it but are getting blocked by Israel at every turn. You make it sound like everyone is sitting on their hands with no clue what to do. Also provision of humanitarian aid cannot be used as a negotiating tool that would be a war crime. Absolutely the hostages need to be released but providing humanitarian aid is seperate to that.

What many seem to think is a "good idea" is instead using hungry children as a weapon to express their prejudice.
What a new low can you point out the posters that are doing that? You seem hell bent on trying to prove Israel is doing no wrong so I would suggest you are trying to deny there are any starving children at all despite the numerous evidence presented to you

Don't you think the humanitarian organisations are trying to "solve" it but are getting blocked by Israel at every turn.
I have just posted the report from the WFP that says they are blocked by Israel in some ways, and also by Palestinians themselves who are at high risk of stealing the aid, and by the circumstances of war making access difficult and dangerous. You have transformed this to "blocked by Israel at every turn".

You make it sound like everyone is sitting on their hands with no clue what to do.
I'd imagine if they are facing three issues:

  1. below and unreliable access
  2. high risk of looting
  3. danger of the warzone

Then focussing on just 1 is unhelpful, isn't it? Israel could let a million trucks in, but if it's being stolen or they cannot be safely delivered, it doesn't solve the issue.

Also provision of humanitarian aid cannot be used as a negotiating tool that would be a war crime. Absolutely the hostages need to be released but providing humanitarian aid is separate to that.
They say a ceasefire is essential to solve the crisis. If that's the case, the hostages will need to be returned.

The hostages too, are also likely starving and have had no access to the red cross for six months. And they are human beings too.

I am cringing now really. It comes across as you not caring at all about hungry people and just using these boards to express your feelings about Israel. It's horrible.

Parkingt111 · 04/04/2024 18:33

NerdWhoEatsMedlar · 04/04/2024 18:24

I stand by the fact that no one is starving to death on 700g of food a day.

The Food and Agriculture Organization of the United Nations (FAO) disagree with you.

My 22kg dog disagrees with you, that's only one and three quarters can of dog food.

COGAT disagrees with you.

Every NGO disagrees with you.

The UK Government disagrees with you.

I disagree with you. Would you like to launch another personal attack calling me an outright liar?

Precisely

fungipie · 04/04/2024 18:35

Mushroomsouptonight · 20/03/2024 16:19

It needs pressure from the US to ensure it gets in quickly.

The US is still sending tons of money and arms to Israel. When they stop, Israel would have to stop. The USA has a massive responsibility in all this.

LemonyTicket · 04/04/2024 18:36

EasterIssland · 04/04/2024 18:29

Where has the poster mentioned anything related with being Jewish?

The poster is aware I am Jewish, they have been interacting with me for a couple of days. They just accused me of being paid by Israel. This is classic antisemitism.

Were we were discussing a hunger issue in another conflict, say in Sudan, and I had questioned that there were deeper causes of food shortages, absolutely NOBODY would have become enraged and absolutely NOBODY would have accused me of being paid by Sudan.

It's so blindingly obvious.

LemonyTicket · 04/04/2024 18:40

@NerdWhoEatsMedlar

You are an outright liar. You posted these things:

You have essentially spent the day doubling down that recreating Minnesota Starvation Experiment in Gaza is a good idea.

It may be because you data analysis is weak but many tried to point out your error and yet again you doubled down.

Neither of those things happened. I have said and done no such thing.

You have twisted entirely everything I have said, because you are hostile to anyone who dares suggest the truth that Israel is not the only responsibly party for the humanitarian crisis in Gaza.

LemonyTicket · 04/04/2024 18:42

Auvergne63 · 04/04/2024 18:27

Your post is beyond understanding. I, frankly, have had enough. I will not engage with you anymore, simply because I do not engage with people who see what they want to see, despite verified evidence from various sources. I thought critical thinking was a must for any scholar. Obviously, I was wrong.

I have never said Islamophobia didn't exist. Ever.
I have no interest engaging with people who make up offensive smears either, thanks!

Auvergne63 · 04/04/2024 18:44

LemonyTicket · 04/04/2024 18:42

I have never said Islamophobia didn't exist. Ever.
I have no interest engaging with people who make up offensive smears either, thanks!

The irony!
" You are an outright liar" sounds like a personal attack to me.
Anyway, adieu.

LemonyTicket · 04/04/2024 18:45

Auvergne63 · 04/04/2024 18:20

Maybe, just maybe the photo is to illustrate what they should be eating instead of grass? Would you prefer to have a picture of a child, eating grass, looking emaciated?
Who says this picture date to the beginning of this Ramadan? Could it be a library picture?
The reason I question data, is exactly because people say and spread complete nonsense like this.
You didn't question data. You made assumptions.
You still haven't provided any evidence to support your claims that no famine is happening. Why is that?

The photo was released and circulated on Twitter and thoroughly debunked. It was a lie, propaganda.

fungipie · 04/04/2024 18:45

There is absolutely nothing antisemitic about denouncing what is happening in Gaza at the moment- the deliberate bombing and starving of a whole civilian population that has been suffering for over 70 years.

EasterIssland · 04/04/2024 18:46

LemonyTicket · 04/04/2024 18:40

@NerdWhoEatsMedlar

You are an outright liar. You posted these things:

You have essentially spent the day doubling down that recreating Minnesota Starvation Experiment in Gaza is a good idea.

It may be because you data analysis is weak but many tried to point out your error and yet again you doubled down.

Neither of those things happened. I have said and done no such thing.

You have twisted entirely everything I have said, because you are hostile to anyone who dares suggest the truth that Israel is not the only responsibly party for the humanitarian crisis in Gaza.

Can you please stop calling people liars ? It’s not the first time you do it

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