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Conflict in the Middle East

Catastrophic hunger - 40% of Gaza's population at risk of famine

408 replies

Createaplant · 30/12/2023 17:13

Being reported by the Guardian:

40% of Gaza’s population is at risk of famine, the United Nations Relief and Works Agency said on Saturday.

“Every day is a struggle for survival, finding food and water,” the UN agency for Palestinian refugees added.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2023/dec/30/israel-gaza-war-live-hamas-palestinians-khan-younis-deaths-un-aid-us#:~:text=40%25%20of%20Gaza's%20population%20is,is%20grappling%20with%20catastrophic%20hunger.

Too sad and completely unnecessary. If only adequate aid, food and water was allowed in.

Catastrophic hunger - 40% of Gaza's population at risk of famine
OP posts:
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LemonyTicket · 04/04/2024 15:39

Silence1 · 04/04/2024 14:49

@LemonyTicket Just to remind you of what the ICJ said and they have access to a lot more information than you have.
From ToI

"The International Court of Justice issued new provisional measures aimed at Israel on Thursday, ordering it to increase the provision of basic humanitarian goods to the Gaza Strip, including food, water, fuel and shelter, due to what it said are worsening living conditions for Palestinians in the war-torn territory.
The catastrophic living conditions of the Palestinians in the Gaza Strip have deteriorated further, in particular in view of the prolonged and widespread deprivation of food and other basic necessities to which the Palestinians in the Gaza Strip have been subjected,” the court said in its decision.

Palestinians in Gaza are no longer facing only a risk of famine… but that famine is setting in,” the court said on Thursday, noting that “the provisional measures indicated in the Order of 26 January 2024 do not fully address the consequences arising from the changes in the situation… thus justifying the modification of these measures.”
On January 26, the ICJ ordered Israel to comply with a series of provisional measures based on its finding that there was plausibility to an application filed by South Africa against Israel that Israel’s actions in Gaza fall under the scope of the Genocide Convention."

Sorry, can you please tell me what information the ICJ have access to that changes what I have said?

I have stated the amount of food going into Gaza based on undisputed data, the same data quoted by news agencies such as the BBC

I have stated the amount of food the UK government says is needed per person, per day.

If people are facing famine, it is evidently not because there is not enough food, but because it is not being safely delivered to them.

LemonyTicket · 04/04/2024 15:43

Dulra · 04/04/2024 15:04

@Silence1 this is why I'm curious because LemonyTicket continually denies there is an issue so I've no idea how they are coming to that conclusion when everything else I read or hear about from organisations and aid workers is that there is a huge issue and it's not just food it is crucial medical supplies. A doctor returning from Gaza last week said he couldn't get access to oxygen masks because they were on the IDF contraband list.
The WHO stated in February that before October less than 1% of children in Gaza were malnourished but now (in February) 50% of children were. Every statistic coming out of Gaza contradicts the premise that enough aid is getting through

Umm, no. As my post says there is clearly an issue. I repeatedly say that.

What I am saying is, the issue is seemingly not a shortage of food being admitted into Gaza.

I have presented evidence that 44% more food than is needed (according to the UK government) has been admitted to Gaza.

You seem very angry about that and are trying to attack me for pointing out facts you don't like because they mean the problem might be more than just Israel's fault.

NerdWhoEatsMedlar · 04/04/2024 15:51

HALF

I'm guessing maths was not you strong point.
You have presented evidence that not more than 72% of food than is needed (according to the UK government) has been admitted to Gaza.

Catastrophic hunger - 40% of Gaza's population at risk of famine
LemonyTicket · 04/04/2024 15:53

NerdWhoEatsMedlar · 04/04/2024 15:37

The parcel can meet half of the daily calorie needs of the family for 15 days

484g x 2 = 968g

700g < 968g

The 700g has also been worked out using the weigh bridge weight, so includes packaging and pallets. i.e. the edible part of the food aid weighs less than 700g.
Even COGATS says this is only enough food if there are large supplies of available intact stored food in Gaza.

I suggest your view is extreme and not held by many.

Ah, right, some sense finally, I missed the word half when reading.

So then it seems 700g of food per person, per day is going into Gaza and 968g is what's actually needed. This makes far more sense. Thank you for providing one of the few reasoned responses.

That would mean 38% less food than is needed is actually getting in, but I do not think it explains "starvation". Simply working out what that quantity of food actually is, it would not kill anbody.

So there seems to be a problem still with even distribution and so on. As I understand it, food is not reaching some areas.

Although I am unsure why looking at the data to understand the food shortage is "extreme". It seems a rather logical thing to do.

RafaistheKingofClay · 04/04/2024 15:53

LemonyTicket · 04/04/2024 15:26

See my second post, I will paste it again here

The best measure of the actual situation that applies here is from the UK Government. Their full statement is here:

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/largest-uk-aid-delivery-enters-gaza-to-feed-275000-people

I quote

"More than 2,000 tonnes of food aid, funded by the government, is being distributed by the World Food Programme (WFP) on the ground. The delivery includes fortified wheat flour for use in bakeries, hot meals and well as ready-to-eat (RTE) food parcels. The food parcels will be used to feed more than 275,000 people in Gaza. "Each food parcel is designed for family of 5 and consists of canned vegetables, meat and fish, and date bars. The parcel can meet half of the daily calorie needs of the family for 15 days"

So according to the UK government, 2000 tonnes of food aid feeds 275k people for 15 days. That works out to 484g per person, per day. According to the UK government this is sufficient to meet needs. And we know 700g of food per day is actually going into Gaza, so that's considerable more than the 484g needed.

So the UK government saying 484g per day is what's needed per person.

(Data aside, do you genuinely believe anyone is eating 2 - 3 kilos of food a day? or that they would die if they didn't? That defies basic common sense)

By definition meeting half the daily calorie needs is not meeting their needs is it?

so either you can feed a family of 5 for 7 days with that food package and meet their needs or you can feed 137k for 15days which is not a lot.

Either way the UK government is quite clear that Israel should be doing more.

LemonyTicket · 04/04/2024 15:57

NerdWhoEatsMedlar · 04/04/2024 15:51

HALF

I'm guessing maths was not you strong point.
You have presented evidence that not more than 72% of food than is needed (according to the UK government) has been admitted to Gaza.

We cross posted there. As you can see, I saw I had missed a word out when I was reading and immediately rectified myself.

Is there a reason why you are so angry and insulting? These are perfectly reasonable questions to ask.

No one starves to death with 700g of food a day. No one is eating grass (which is one of the more crazy posts I have seen). Unless, the food is not getting to them.

Is there a reason why you would be so keen to stamp your feet and say ISRAEL IS STARVING PEOPLE TO DEATH rather than actually looking at why people are starving to death?

Israel definitely makes people go a little weird doesn't it.

RafaistheKingofClay · 04/04/2024 16:01

I don’t think it is 700g food a day if the weight is the weigh bridge weight as a previous poster said above. It’ll include packaging etc.

TheTimeIsNowMaybeNow · 04/04/2024 16:08

I don't know why people are even bothering when that poster can't even be bothered to read what the WFP have said after repeatedly using them as an example of an organisation that is distributing food.

what's happening with the distribution of food? 14 trucks turned away on the 5th of March by the IDF that should have been distributed in North gaza for one is one example of the difficulties WFP are facing

But no, Isreal or more accurately their government isn't starving people to death

Efacsen · 04/04/2024 16:08

This poster is completely fixed on COGAT_IDFs very recent figures - 176 trucks/day and even that hasn't been consistent

But this is just a blip if you look back at the OCHA infographics you will see that in February the average was 34 trucks/day [approx 7% of what was needed] and on one occasion that month was only seven trucks

And the Israeli government actually said that they were reducing the aid going in to starve out Hamas /turn the locals against Hamas

Anyway it's pointless 'discussing' this with someone of such fixed and extremist views

Dulra · 04/04/2024 16:16

LemonyTicket · 04/04/2024 15:57

We cross posted there. As you can see, I saw I had missed a word out when I was reading and immediately rectified myself.

Is there a reason why you are so angry and insulting? These are perfectly reasonable questions to ask.

No one starves to death with 700g of food a day. No one is eating grass (which is one of the more crazy posts I have seen). Unless, the food is not getting to them.

Is there a reason why you would be so keen to stamp your feet and say ISRAEL IS STARVING PEOPLE TO DEATH rather than actually looking at why people are starving to death?

Israel definitely makes people go a little weird doesn't it.

So there was miscalculation with your figures which is why I queried it because your confidence that there was enough aid getting through contradicted everything else I have read and heard on the current situation.

You seem very angry about that and are trying to attack me for pointing out facts you don't like because they mean the problem might be more than just Israel's fault.
I wasn't "very angry" I was just trying to work out the truth and I certainly wasn't attacking you!
And I do think the difficulty with the distribution of aid is the IDF and Israeli governments fault as do the UN, ICJ, EU, UK, WHO if what statements I've read from them are accurate. My local MEP returned from the region a few weeks ago and was very vocal about the issues with aid getting through and issues with distribution.

No one starves to death with 700g of food a day. No one is eating grass (which is one of the more crazy posts I have seen). Unless, the food is not getting to them.
Children and babies are though! I also think it is unrealistic to expect the aid that is getting through to be distributed evenly. Yes looting occurs which is the case in all areas where people are desperate, the fittest are mobile and can get to the distribution points easier, the roads are in bits so it is extremely difficult to get aid to certain areas. The IDF will not allow communication systems on the aid trucks so logistics is an issue. Many organisations that distribute aid are pulling out because their safety is not guaranteed. UNWRA the best placed organisation to distribute aid is unable to do so. So many are not getting the 700g of food a day. Include in that those that are sick and dying but unable to getting access to medical supplies. I have not heard anyone from anywhere claim it is not a humanitarian disaster

Parkingt111 · 04/04/2024 16:17

@Efacsen exactly
All the major allies have openly criticised Israel for not allowing in sufficient aid, see post above of Rishi Sunaks comments to Netanyahu about Israel being in breach of IHL for the same reason.

Parkingt111 · 04/04/2024 16:19

@LemonyTicket see below posted an hour ago from BBC's live reporting

the NGO Oxfam has been looking at the realities of what Palestinians in the north of the Strip are facing on a daily basis - including that people have been forced to survive on an average of 245 calories a day (less than a can of fava beans) since January.
It adds that "the minuscule amount of food represents less than 12% per cent of the recommended daily 2,100-calorie intake needed per person, calculated using demographic data considering variations by age and gender".

EasterIssland · 04/04/2024 16:29

Few news in bbc at the moment

many survive with less than a half a can a day

Catastrophic hunger - 40% of Gaza's population at risk of famine
NerdWhoEatsMedlar · 04/04/2024 16:29

People are peeved with you @LemonyTicket because you have essentially spent the day doubling down that recreating Minnesota Starvation Experiment in Gaza is a good idea. It may be because you data analysis is weak but many tried to point out your error and yet again you doubled down.

Even COGAT says that there are only enough calories in Gaza if there is local food production and use of preexisting stockpiles.

MrsTerryPratchett · 04/04/2024 16:30

That would mean 38% less food than is needed is actually getting in, but I do not think it explains "starvation". Simply working out what that quantity of food actually is, it would not kill anbody.

Malnutrition causes a huge raft of issues. Particularly for children. Death is not the only consequence of starving people.

I recently spoke to a lovely man in Central America whose family suffered this when he was a child. His younger brother is almost a foot taller and in much better health. Lifelong health issues can result.

But anyone who plays 'what about' with depriving children of food probably doesn't actually care.

EasterIssland · 04/04/2024 16:31

The population fears the consequences post 2 organisations pausing the aid

Catastrophic hunger - 40% of Gaza's population at risk of famine
Parkingt111 · 04/04/2024 16:31

In terms of why there are issues with distribution then I'm sure there's no need to be reminded of why so few aid groups are now willing to work in Gaza. Even less so than before the attack that killed the foreign humanitarian aid workers

But anyway one of the reasons given by Cameron

The distribution of aid within Gaza, meanwhile, has been hindered by Israel preventing staff from getting visas, he added.
“This needs to change,” Lord Cameron wrote.
"We continue to reiterate to the Government of Israel the need to approve more visas for UN staff and also ensure effective de-confliction mechanisms are in place.”

EasterIssland · 04/04/2024 16:31

No aid in the north and urnwa is not allowed (by idf) to do it

Catastrophic hunger - 40% of Gaza's population at risk of famine
Parkingt111 · 04/04/2024 16:34

@LemonyTicket people are rightly annoyed that you are insisting that there is no blame at all that lies with Israel when it comes to allowing in sufficient aid aswell as measures that ensure safe distribution, despite most allies and countless organisations all saying the same thing. And then as you put it 'stamp your feet' when people don't agree with your assessment and go with the assessment of organisations like the WFP instead.

EasterIssland · 04/04/2024 17:42

I saw this yesterday another organisation will try and provide the aid. Hopefully none will be killed

Catastrophic hunger - 40% of Gaza's population at risk of famine
LemonyTicket · 04/04/2024 17:49

TheTimeIsNowMaybeNow · 04/04/2024 16:08

I don't know why people are even bothering when that poster can't even be bothered to read what the WFP have said after repeatedly using them as an example of an organisation that is distributing food.

what's happening with the distribution of food? 14 trucks turned away on the 5th of March by the IDF that should have been distributed in North gaza for one is one example of the difficulties WFP are facing

But no, Isreal or more accurately their government isn't starving people to death

I have read what the WFP have said. They released a report on it last week and I read it carefully. They I quote from the report, linked below and with my questions / comments in bold:

Famine – even in northern Gaza – can be halted if full access is facilitated for aid organizations to provide food, water, nutrition products, medicines, health and sanitation services, at scale, to the entire civilian population. For this to be possible, a humanitarian ceasefire is necessary.

So they are saying they need a ceasefire here. Which unfortunately is not really in Israel's power to provide. Hamas can provide this, at any time, by simply returning the hostages and ceasing fighting.

WFP estimates that simply addressing the basic food needs will require at least 300 trucks to enter Gaza every day and distribute food, especially in the north. WFP has only managed to take nine convoys to the north since the start of the year

So they are saying they need 300 trucks a day of food - I have seen conflicting claims from other NGOs (including the UN!) saying they need "at least 500", so the situation seems mired in very conflicting reports on this. Hence I took the time to go and try and work out for myself what the actual truth was. The issue with this conflict, compared to others, is that people - even respected organisations - frequently use hyperbole for the simple reason that they are politicised.

The latest of these, on Sunday night, involved 18 truckloads of food supplies delivered by WFP to Gaza City. The convoy, the second to use a coordinated route into Gaza City and the north, delivered some 274 metric tons of wheat flour, food parcels and ready-to-eat rations. This route needs to be made available for daily convoys and safe access to the north.

Dispatching aid to the north of Gaza needs day-to-day approvals from Israeli authorities. During the long waits at the Wadi Gaza checkpoint, truck convoys face looting and are frequently turned back. If they do get through, there is a high risk of more looting along the difficult route north.

WFP and our partners have food supplies ready, at the border and in the region, to feed all 2.2 million people across Gaza -- but moving food into and within Gaza is like trying to navigate a maze, with obstacles at every turn,” said WFP Deputy Executive Director and Chief Operating Officer, Carl Skau. “The complicated border controls, combined with the high tensions and desperation inside Gaza, make it nearly impossible for food supplies to reach people in need, particularly in the north. But the delivery of 18 trucks of food on Sunday shows that it can be done. This cannot be a one-off, but this needs to be sustained, regular and at scale to support those in need.”

So what they're saying is that getting trucks through takes too long and trucks are frequently turned back, that delivering food is unsafe and that there is a "high risk" of looting. So the problem is not just quantity, it is that once the food is inside it is hard to get it to people and there is a high risk of it being stolen!

To provide the necessary response, WFP and its humanitarian partners need Israel to provide more entry points into Gaza, direct access via crossings in the north, and the use of Ashdod port in Israel to bring in food aid. Sustained road access – both into Gaza and then within Gaza - is critical because other options, such as airdrops, cannot deliver the volume of aid urgently needed to avert imminent famine. Above all, a ceasefire is urgently needed for WFP and the humanitarian community to roll out a massive relief operation reaching all the communities in need.

So it sounds like what THEY are saying is that it's not ALL "ISRAEL IS STARVING PEOPLE", but actually a far more complex issue where the facts are far less black and white than that. It sounds like they are saying that a ceasefire is the only way of solving the problem, and that is not a one-sided decision. In fact, Hamas, as the actually GOVERNMENT of Gaza are actually far more responsible for the lives of their people than Israel is. They are also far more responsible than Israel is for ensuring food is delivered safely to people - but it certainly sounds like they -and possibly other armed groups - are actually stealing the food!

So please, do not tell me I am "not interested", I am very interested. What I am not interested in is starving people being used as a stick to portray Israel as evil when they are fighting against people who refuse to surrender or give their hostages back, and who are evidently "highly likely" to steal any bloody food that gets in!

https://www.wfp.org/news/famine-imminent-northern-gaza-new-report-warns#:~:text=Dispatching%20aid%20to%20the%20north,along%20the%20difficult%20route%20north.

Famine imminent in northern Gaza, new report warns | World Food Programme

ROME – Famine is imminent in the northern part of the Gaza Strip and the entire population of Gaza is facing crisis levels of food insecurity or worse, according to the new Integrated Food Security Phase Classification (IPC) report released today.

https://www.wfp.org/news/famine-imminent-northern-gaza-new-report-warns#:~:text=Dispatching%20aid%20to%20the%20north,along%20the%20difficult%20route%20north.

LemonyTicket · 04/04/2024 17:57

Parkingt111 · 04/04/2024 16:34

@LemonyTicket people are rightly annoyed that you are insisting that there is no blame at all that lies with Israel when it comes to allowing in sufficient aid aswell as measures that ensure safe distribution, despite most allies and countless organisations all saying the same thing. And then as you put it 'stamp your feet' when people don't agree with your assessment and go with the assessment of organisations like the WFP instead.

Edited

I'd LOVE to see you quote me saying there was "no blame at all" on Israel. I have repeatedly said, no ALL the blame is on Israel.

I think there is some blame. I think they need to open up more routes, I think they need to provide more visas for aid workers, I think they need to turn trucks away less frequently or have some independent peacekeepers take over checking the trucks. I think there's plenty they can improve.

I think there is a massive amount on blame on Hamas, who'd prefer to see people starve to death than give back the hostages and surrender their arms and who are clearly stealing the aid that goes in.

I think there's also considerable blame on the militia groups (I have heard a Palestinian resident refer to these as "clans") who are also stealing the aid. As the WFP report said, there is a "high risk of looting". And so yes, I think the Palestinians stealing from other starving Palestinians deserve a little responsibility.

I blame the NGOs a bit too. I blame the UN for becoming so embroiled with Hamas that they themselves cannot do effectively the job they are supposed to do. I blame many others for being so political they are more interested in flinging mud at Israel than being honest about what's going on or resolving the problem.

The problem we have isn't that I don't want to see fault in Israel, it's that others ONLY want to see that. Which isn't helpful, is it? How do any of these people feel pressure to resolve their part in this catastrophe if no matter what they do everyone just says "Oh Israel"?

Hamas would be sorting this nonsense out quickly enough if people demanded they did, but right now the whole thing plays right into their hands. They are completely blameless!

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