South Africa has invoked the Genocide Convention against Israel over Gaza

[HeidiInTheBigCity]

The entire filing is 84 pages long and, frankly, took me several hours to read - it's well worth the effort, though, in that it is rather (painfully at times) clinical and devastating in equal measure: https://www.icj-cij.org/sites/default/files/case-related/192/192-20231228-app-01-00-en.pdf

Go, South Africa!

It might not male that much of a difference in the short term - but: to see the former victims of Apartheid take the lead on the world stage, and offer support (the way they - after multiple decades of campaigning and pressure ... it's not as though world leaders hated Apartheid South Africa "by default") is just ... a little spark of light within the darkness!

@HeidiInTheBigCity well said.

Look, you can go on and treat "but Hamas" as a monolith

I'm saying that while there might be mild-mannered peace loving Hamas members out there, the ones that seem to be let's call them the main players right now are the ones who are being decidedly violent.

The ones who raped and murdered on 7th October. The ones still firing rockets and still holding hostages and still fighting on the streets, regardless of whether the 2017 charter seems less violent than the 1988 one.

I mean, what is the point of going on about the 2017 charter being less violent post-7th October?

Actions speak louder than words, right?

I will not necessarily disagree with you there - but: I will apply the same standard to the IDF and the subsequently more far-right governments of Israel.

No problem with that at all.

I'm just baffled by the attempts to make Hamas seem reasonable or conciliatory or whatever given their stated beliefs, stated intentions and actual actions.

How is that disingenuous??

It was in the middle of a conversation entirely about Hamas. It was obvious who my comment was about in that context.

So the stated intention was 'I need to know whether you're talking about Hamas or the IDF because I can't tell'

But the actual intention was 'I want to get in a little dig about how awful the IDF are because this thread hasn't mentioned how terrible Israel are for a few posts now'.

So that's why it was disingenuous.

Big wow.

I'm sure Israel is quaking in its boots.

Hmm, i didn't read it at all like that @noblegiraffe, guess we are seeing different things here

Let's just say it's not my first rodeo.

You will find this weird - because I do not even remotely agree with you "in principle".

But, again, I actually agree!

Hamas is not "conciliatory" at all - neither is the Israeli government, though! The increasingly open and frequent calls for ethnic cleansing are bone-chilling! Bibi starting a de-facto re-election campaign in the middle of it all based on "if not for me, we would have a two-state-solution" is insane!

And ... I am having a really hard time even wrapping my head around typing this: neither are the IDF ["conciliatory" or "even remotely nice", I mean] - but between the IDF leadership and the current government, I place more hope in the former!

That will be the same IDF who humiliated my husband, shot and tortured my friend, and killed my student! Yes, I hold their generals in higher regard than the politicians who command them.

This is arguably, from my personal perspective, the weirdest arse shit I have ever written!

You will find this weird - because I do not even remotely agree with you "in principle".

What do you mean you don't remotely agree with me in principle? I'm not sure what it is you don't agree with?

That will be the same IDF who humiliated my husband, shot and tortured my friend, and killed my student! Yes, I hold their generals in higher regard than the politicians who command them.

I'm really sorry that happened to your friends and family, it sounds horrendous. I don't know much about the leadership of the IDF, but the right-wing Israeli government are dangerous fanatics and the sooner they are gone (and properly investigated) the better.

For the record: I blame Ariel Sharon, personally, for the inexcusable, brutal torture of my friend for and the death of my English student!

I blame Bibi Netanyahu, personally, for how my then husband was grabbed, held for hours, humiliated and beaten at a checkpoint - and for how much, on a personal level - I knew EXACTLY that he was singled out because he was with me, because I was British, and because he was not and they just thought "let us stick it to them pesky foreigners who think they are better". I called the British embassy when that happened, sobbing and begging! And they said "call us again when they dare to even so much as breathe at you - you are a citizen, but your husband is not".

They did this on purpose!

But I hold the people setting policy to blame - not the soldiers who executed said policy!

Then perhaps I misunderstood your take - if so: my apologies!

That because I think people should be clear that Hamas are bad I must think Israel is good?

I do think there is a problem with the idea that people have to take sides. It seems to be leading to some people making efforts to minimise any bad actions taken by people on 'their side'. Not you, but I do object to people making efforts to try to rehabilitate Hamas. And of course it happens both ways.

It's not a case of goodies and baddies. Both sides are doing and saying some pretty dreadful things while civilians take the brunt. There are no easy solutions to this incredibly complex situation.

Agreed ... again!

Look, basically everything I believe about the whole situation is informed by "what both Palestinian and Israeli leftists have taught me".

As such, of course I am vehemently opposed to the occupation and all that it stands for. Also against any and all forms of ethnic and/or religious supremacism.

At the same time: I also have to recognise and see the insane power imbalance.

@noblegiraffe we tend to not agree in many posts but I’ve to say that I agree with your last few ones. I’ve been saying for a while that it’s not black or white. And that both sides have to recognise the damage if we want some peace in the area. Without that there will be Hamas for a long time even if they kill all their members in the next few weeks

I dislike factual inaccuracy and the repeated assertion that Hamas's charter is to destroy Israel.

In May 2017 Hamas published A Document of General Principles and Policies (وثيقة المبادئ والسياسات العامة لحركة حماس), often referred to as the new or revised Hamas charter. It advocated for a Palestinian state in theb1967 borders, describing this as a "formula of national consensus".

So, yes, original charter was for pre 1947; now it's 1967 borders.

< whether you believe the revised charter is another matter - that's up to,you - but try for some factual accuracy in relation to the charter >

No shame at all.

https://youtube.com/shorts/B86psroyFD8?si=qGem4O37_8i10VpF

Sure, let's have some quotes:

"Palestine is a land that was seized by a racist, anti-human and colonial Zionist project that was founded on a false promise (the Balfour Declaration), on recognition of a usurping entity and on imposing a fait accompli by force.
Palestine symbolises the resistance that shall continue until liberation is accomplished, until the return is fulfilled and until a fully sovereign state is established with Jerusalem as its capital."

"The Islamic Resistance Movement “Hamas” is a Palestinian Islamic national liberation and resistance movement. Its goal is to liberate Palestine and confront the Zionist project."

"Palestine, which extends from the River Jordan in the east to the Mediterranean in the west and from Ras al-Naqurah in the north to Umm al-Rashrash in the south, is an integral territorial unit. It is the land and the home of the Palestinian people. The expulsion and banishment of the Palestinian people from their land and the establishment of the Zionist entity therein do not annul the right of the Palestinian people to their entire land and do not entrench any rights therein for the usurping Zionist entity."

"The Palestinian cause in its essence is a cause of an occupied land and a displaced people. The right of the Palestinian refugees and the displaced to return to their homes from which they were banished or were banned from returning to – whether in the lands occupied in 1948 or in 1967 (that is the whole of Palestine), is a natural right, both individual and collective."

"The Zionist project is a racist, aggressive, colonial and expansionist project based on seizing the properties of others; it is hostile to the Palestinian people and to their aspiration for freedom, liberation, return and self-determination. The Israeli entity is the plaything of the Zionist project and its base of aggression."

"The Zionist movement, which was able with the help of Western powers to occupy Palestine, is the most dangerous form of settlement occupation which has already disappeared from much of the world and must disappear from Palestine."

"Hamas believes that no part of the land of Palestine shall be compromised or conceded, irrespective of the causes, the circumstances and the pressures and no matter how long the occupation lasts. Hamas rejects any alternative to the full and complete liberation of Palestine, from the river to the sea"

"Hamas stresses that transgression against the Palestinian people, usurping their land and banishing them from their homeland cannot be called peace. Any settlements reached on this basis will not lead to peace. Resistance and jihad for the liberation of Palestine will remain a legitimate right, a duty and an honour for all the sons and daughters of our people and our Ummah."

Doubling down on efforts to gaslight the world.

As usual I read this and see Hamas/current Israeli government as two sides of the same coin in terms of what they say and do.

How is "eradicate Hamas" any different to "the zionist movement....must disappear from Palestine"? Both statements are about a political movement. Both are extreme in their language. Yet one is seem as acceptable and one not.

"transgression against the Palestinian people, usurping their land and banishing them from their homeland cannot be called peace" is basically the same argument as the Israeli argument about October 7th.

"The Zionist project is a racist, aggressive, colonial and expansionist project based on seizing the properties of others; it is hostile to the Palestinian people and to their aspiration for freedom, liberation, return and self-determination." Again very similar to how Israeli government supporters talk about Hamas.

I find it incredibly frustrating to read the posts that "Hamas are evil" without recognition that the Israeli government are very similar in goals, language and method. It's hypocritical. And in the meantime thousands of humans are dying for no reason other than they were born in a disputed territory. It is horrific.

You must have missed my posts condemning the Israeli government. They’re not that far upthread.

I’ve just read the entire document, my god…..when you see it all laid out it’s completely chilling. How on earth in this day and age have we let this happen ?
How do Gaza come back from this ? the trauma those children have gone through is heartbreaking ? The whole civilisation is ruined, their history, their schools, the infrastructure. We’ve all been watching this play out almost drip fed, but to see it in black and white over 78 pages, I just have no words left 😢