Active discussions

Meet the Other Phone. A phone that grows with your child.

Meet the Other Phone.
A phone that grows with your child.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Talk
Conflict in the Middle East
Original poster

Genuine question - why does the USA support Israel so strongly?

196 replies

Bathsheba1789 · 21/12/2023 22:19

Genuine question. I just don’t understand it. I do know some of the history, and the feelings about the need to create a Jewish homeland post WW2. However currently - Netanyahu and Biden don’t get on, Obama had a very frosty relationship with Netanyahu. The current Israeli coalition government contains some openly extremist politicians who have used racist rhetoric against the Palestinians in the past.
The IDF are clearly committing war crimes and the international pressure for a ceasefire is mounting.
So why is the US so pro Israel? The current debate about the UN resolution - why is the US demanding the language be watered down to keep Netanyahu happy - for goodness sake the USA is the most powerful country in the world.
genuinely don’t get it. This isn’t a goading question I just scratch my head at the whole thing (when not feeling utter despair at the terrible suffering in the world).

OP posts:
Thread gallery
11
Original poster
Bathsheba1789 · 22/12/2023 10:48

@mollyfolk i agree. I remember the first PMQs after October 7th. A few MPs who said that we need to think of Gazan civilians were jeered. Actually jeered.
And those few MPs were right.
To me it was so utterly obvious what was going to happen. I have not been surprised by any of Israel’s actions. If you read about their current government none of it is surprising.
what I do find surprising is how our governments didn’t see it coming. Or at least, pretended not to.

OP posts:
sashh · 22/12/2023 10:57

ayegazumba · 22/12/2023 08:02

I understand but you can't compare this to what's happening with russia. There's no similarities. Russia attacked and invaded ukraine completely unprovoked. Not mentioning the actions of Hamas on October 7th is to completely ignore the reason for what's happening and to deny Israel's right to exist even if you don't realise that's what you're doing. Israel is quite literally fighting for existence right now surrounded by those intent at destroying every single person who lives there. Hamas don't hide that's what they want to do, they're proud of it, they parade it around, they make promises to repeat October 7th again and again. What's happening in Gaza is horrendous but to put the responsibility on Israel and not Hamas when any other country would do exactly the same to protect its citizens shows a very strange bias towards Israel as a country. Why are there so many threads on this every day? Why hasn't any other conflict or war attracted so much attention? Why are the Hamas atrocities so willfully overlooked, dismissed and even denied? Even when Russia invaded Ukraine (and they're still there in case anyone has forgotten) we didn't see the outrage like this. I'd just ask anyone not personally linked to this conflict to start asking themselves some questions.

Israel has a right to exist, I have no argument about that.

What happened on the 7th October was terrorism, pure and simple.

For me the grey area is that Israel seems to be bombing and shooting indiscriminately in Gaza while the Hamas leaders are not there.

I don't understand why they are not going for the leaders, the ones who planned the attacks.

FOJN · 22/12/2023 10:57

mollyfolk · 22/12/2023 10:35

The threads in here are because of all the arguments. If I was to start a thread about Russia being awful I’m sure everyone would just agree with me. Nobody would think that I was saying Russian citizens were awful. Nobody would think that I was Russia didn’t have a right to exist. Nobody would think I had deep rooted anti Russian sentiment that was leading me to criticise their governments abuse of human rights in Ukraine.

Personally I’m outraged that initially the UK, the EU and the US clapped on the Israeli authorities actions in Gaza despite their being evidence of human rights abuses from the start. They should have called for restraint on the large number of civilian deaths straight away. They waited too long and everyone has blood on their hands now. Every single ally is saying - stop killing civilians - now but it’s too little, too late.

Show quote history

I simply cannot understand or forgive our government for supporting Israel after they said they were going to cut off food and water to over 2 million civilians.

It was a clear statement of intent wrt collective punishment.

I agree we all have blood on our hands now.

mindthespace · 22/12/2023 10:57

Bathsheba1789 · 22/12/2023 10:48

@mollyfolk i agree. I remember the first PMQs after October 7th. A few MPs who said that we need to think of Gazan civilians were jeered. Actually jeered.
And those few MPs were right.
To me it was so utterly obvious what was going to happen. I have not been surprised by any of Israel’s actions. If you read about their current government none of it is surprising.
what I do find surprising is how our governments didn’t see it coming. Or at least, pretended not to.

Our Governments do see it coming. They don't care sadly. Remember when Rishi said he wanted Israel to 'win'.

There is no winning just death and destruction.

Livinginanotherworld · 22/12/2023 10:58

ayegazumba · 22/12/2023 09:14

@Bathsheba1789 the whole thing is depressing. Hamas have spent the last few days rejecting ceasefire agreements. I also don't doubt there is a lot of pressure from the US behind closed doors for israel to come to the table with ceasefire offers. But I don't necessarily agree that they're committing war crimes. There's so much israel are doing which other countries wouldn't in times of war. Humanitarian aid, pre warnings of attacks etc. I think the sad reality is israel are fighting an entity that doesn't care about it citizens, to such an extend that it celebrates martyrdom and citizens dying for their cause. How do you deal with that? It's an impossible situation

The facts are that they haven’t rejected a ceasefire, they rejected a 7 day truce !
Why would they vote for that. So they can be killed in 7 days time ?
Hama want a full ceasefire, a permanent ceasefire, they will release all the hostages then. Netanyahu doesn’t want a ceasefire and he is not that bothered about the hostages sadly.

TheSuggestedAmendment · 22/12/2023 11:07

Dulra · 22/12/2023 10:12

What has lack of access to tertiary education got to do with being sophisticated? It is just another example of dehumanising Palestinians

Show quote history

My response was not to do with Palestine. It was a response to the title - why is Israel so supported y the US? There are other countries in the Middle East that aren’t Palestine.

Xenia · 22/12/2023 11:24

Israel is the best country in a sea of absolutely dreadful regimes which exist without democracy like Saudi and Iran. Israel, USA and UK (and the EU) share values and we are in a sense the thin bulwark of protection for much of the planet against the tyranny of terrorists like Hamas and regimes like Russia, China, North Korea.

GreyGreyGrey · 22/12/2023 11:46

Former American with political science degree here.

America supports Israel because:
-they do not want Iran to control the middle east and all the oil. That means they will be strong allies to both Israel and Saudi Arabia
-though imperfect, America really does believe in democracy and personal freedom; Israel is the only pluralist democracy in the region

To address some side issues: the fundamentalist Christians are a niche group, who hold little sway; opinions from the UN are taken with a large pinch of salt by Americans; and as a starting point, Americans believe Israel has a right to exist.

realunreal · 22/12/2023 11:50

Xenia · 22/12/2023 11:24

Israel is the best country in a sea of absolutely dreadful regimes which exist without democracy like Saudi and Iran. Israel, USA and UK (and the EU) share values and we are in a sense the thin bulwark of protection for much of the planet against the tyranny of terrorists like Hamas and regimes like Russia, China, North Korea.

How does Israeli govt's oppression of Palestinians fit with democratic UK, EU etc values? Genuinely curious to know? Or maybe you're not aware of how Palestinians are routinely oppressed and have been for many decades?

IMO Israeli govt behaviour towards Palestinians as bad as many of the other countries you mention.

Parker231 · 22/12/2023 12:15

GreyGreyGrey · 22/12/2023 11:46

Former American with political science degree here.

America supports Israel because:
-they do not want Iran to control the middle east and all the oil. That means they will be strong allies to both Israel and Saudi Arabia
-though imperfect, America really does believe in democracy and personal freedom; Israel is the only pluralist democracy in the region

To address some side issues: the fundamentalist Christians are a niche group, who hold little sway; opinions from the UN are taken with a large pinch of salt by Americans; and as a starting point, Americans believe Israel has a right to exist.

You think the apartheid system in Israel is a democracy? Thankfully more Americans are seeing what is happening in Gaza and turning against Israel. Will be interesting to see how the US votes in the current proposal from the UN.

realunreal · 22/12/2023 12:22

I feel there is so much cognitive dissonance around how some people view Israel as a democratic and fair society, ignoring, justifying, minimising or looking the other way with regards to how Palestinians are treated. Hamas aside, as it's been going on for many decades and goes way beyond Hamas. Very strange to hold this opinion of fairness and democracy in the face of what is going on for Palestinians.

mindthespace · 22/12/2023 12:47

*@FOJN
*
How can anyone defend it? Even if he was guilty of a hideous crime starving prisoners is a violation of human rights.

I don't know how they defend it. Beyond words. Israel keeps breaking international law and then hides behind western democracies who let them get away it.

Then everyone wonders why there is so much anger and hatred towards America. Next time you see an Arab country burning the American flag remember what they let the so called only democracy in the ME do to the people of Palestine.

mindthespace · 22/12/2023 12:55

ayegazumba · 22/12/2023 08:02

I understand but you can't compare this to what's happening with russia. There's no similarities. Russia attacked and invaded ukraine completely unprovoked. Not mentioning the actions of Hamas on October 7th is to completely ignore the reason for what's happening and to deny Israel's right to exist even if you don't realise that's what you're doing. Israel is quite literally fighting for existence right now surrounded by those intent at destroying every single person who lives there. Hamas don't hide that's what they want to do, they're proud of it, they parade it around, they make promises to repeat October 7th again and again. What's happening in Gaza is horrendous but to put the responsibility on Israel and not Hamas when any other country would do exactly the same to protect its citizens shows a very strange bias towards Israel as a country. Why are there so many threads on this every day? Why hasn't any other conflict or war attracted so much attention? Why are the Hamas atrocities so willfully overlooked, dismissed and even denied? Even when Russia invaded Ukraine (and they're still there in case anyone has forgotten) we didn't see the outrage like this. I'd just ask anyone not personally linked to this conflict to start asking themselves some questions.

Your line about Russia invading Ukraine uprovoked. Whilst I'm not a fan of Russia and support Ukraine have a quick search on what NATO was doing before the war started close to Russia's borders.

GreyGreyGrey · 22/12/2023 13:11

Parker231 · 22/12/2023 12:15

You think the apartheid system in Israel is a democracy? Thankfully more Americans are seeing what is happening in Gaza and turning against Israel. Will be interesting to see how the US votes in the current proposal from the UN.

Show quote history

The OP asked for the American perspective, and I gave it.

I am curious about people referring to Israel as an apartheid state. How can this be when 20% of Israel’s citizens are arabs with full rights?

Parker231 · 22/12/2023 13:17

@GreyGreyGrey

Amnesty International demonstrates that Israeli authorities treat Palestinians as an inferior racial group who are defined by their non-Jewish, Arab status. This racial discrimination is cemented in laws which affect Palestinians across Israel and the OPT.
For example, Palestinian citizens of Israel are denied a nationality, establishing a legal differentiation from Jewish Israelis. In the West Bank and Gaza, where Israel has controlled the population registry since 1967, Palestinians have no citizenship and most are considered stateless, requiring ID cards from the Israeli military to live and work in the territories.
Palestinian refugees and their descendants, who were displaced in the 1947-49 and 1967 conflicts, continue to be denied the right to return to their former places of residence. Israel’s exclusion of refugees is a flagrant violation of international law which has left millions in a perpetual limbo of forced displacement.
Palestinians in annexed East Jerusalem are granted permanent residence instead of citizenship – though this status is permanent in name only. Since 1967, more than 14,000 Palestinians have had their residency revoked at the discretion of the Ministry of the Interior, resulting in their forcible transfer outside the city.

GreyGreyGrey · 22/12/2023 13:25

I think you are conflating two different groups. Palestinians and Arab Israeli’s. One is an external group of non-citizens with whom Israel is having a land dispute. The other is an internal ethnic minority afforded citizenship and full rights.

To consider Israel and apartheid state you have to presume that the land belongs to the Palestinians and that they are de facto citizens. America recognises Israel as a state and Palestinians as being outside that state. This is the disconnect.

FOJN · 22/12/2023 14:12

I am curious about people referring to Israel as an apartheid state. How can this be when 20% of Israel’s citizens are arabs with full rights?

Are you sure about that?

www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israels-knesset-passes-law-barring-palestinian-spouses-2022-03-10/

FOJN · 22/12/2023 14:17

GreyGreyGrey · 22/12/2023 13:25

I think you are conflating two different groups. Palestinians and Arab Israeli’s. One is an external group of non-citizens with whom Israel is having a land dispute. The other is an internal ethnic minority afforded citizenship and full rights.

To consider Israel and apartheid state you have to presume that the land belongs to the Palestinians and that they are de facto citizens. America recognises Israel as a state and Palestinians as being outside that state. This is the disconnect.

That disconnect is bridged by the term "illegal occupation".

An occupying force has certain obligations and the Israeli government can't even meet those.

If Palestinians are stateless, who made them so?

I know you said you had a political science degree and everything but do you think multiple international humanitarian agencies with an army of human rights lawyers are wrong when they describe Israel as an apartheid state.

Frankly given the number of international laws it's breaking I'd describe it as a rogue state.

shockeditellyou · 22/12/2023 14:18

realunreal · 22/12/2023 12:22

I feel there is so much cognitive dissonance around how some people view Israel as a democratic and fair society, ignoring, justifying, minimising or looking the other way with regards to how Palestinians are treated. Hamas aside, as it's been going on for many decades and goes way beyond Hamas. Very strange to hold this opinion of fairness and democracy in the face of what is going on for Palestinians.

So can you explain why you choose to direct your outrage at Israel, which is at least a functioning, pluralist democracy for most of its citizens, and not the rest of the Middle Eastern countries which are complete basket cases for human rights?

Why is Israel so much more deserving of condemnation from you? Why did it take the Hamas butchery against Israel for there to be sufficient traffic for MN to create a Middle East section? Are perhaps the Syrians less important?

And would you condemn the US for supporting any other Middle East nation, if you are using human rights abuses as a yardstick?

tescocreditcard · 22/12/2023 14:20

Would you prefer them to support Hamas?

realunreal · 22/12/2023 14:45

shockeditellyou · 22/12/2023 14:18

So can you explain why you choose to direct your outrage at Israel, which is at least a functioning, pluralist democracy for most of its citizens, and not the rest of the Middle Eastern countries which are complete basket cases for human rights?

Why is Israel so much more deserving of condemnation from you? Why did it take the Hamas butchery against Israel for there to be sufficient traffic for MN to create a Middle East section? Are perhaps the Syrians less important?

And would you condemn the US for supporting any other Middle East nation, if you are using human rights abuses as a yardstick?

Show quote history

Oh sorry I forgot to add in my usual "I condemn Hamas". Of course I condemn them. That I choose not to do so in every single post does not mean I support them or any other ME countries that are "basket cases for human rights", or that I do not speak out against those other countries.

In case you hadn't realised this is a board discussing the Palestine/Israel issues. Hence discussing those issues on here. Hardly surprising.

And our government is supporting Israel in its current campaign, which I do not agree with. Our government is not supporting Iran et al.

And I am appalled at what I have read about how Israeli govt behaves to Palestinians via human rights organisations such as Amnesty, and how long it has been going on for. It is one of the major focuses in the news, on our social media and so on right now. So it is hardly surprising that people are angry about it.

And it is all going on RIGHT NOW amid a bloody and horrible war. Hence the current immediate focus. A war that has been deemed one of the most destructive in history:

According to experts war in Gaza is one of the most destructive in history
"Gaza is now a different colour from space. It's a different texture," Mr Scher said, who has worked to map destruction across several warzones.
The offensive has wreaked more destruction than the razing of Aleppo between 2012 and 2016, Ukraine's Mariupol last year at the hands of Russia or, proportionally, the Allied bombing of Germany in the Second World War.

https://news.sky.com/story/israel-gaza-latest-hamas-war-updates-sky-news-blog-12978800?postid=6959887#liveblog-body

Israel-Hamas latest: Gaza now 'different colour from space' after Israeli levelling, map expert says

Israel's military campaign is viewed as one of the most destructive in the history of warfare, according to experts. Meanwhile, the UN Security Council is finally ready to vote on a ceasefire resolution after intense negotiations between the US and the...

https://news.sky.com/story/israel-gaza-latest-hamas-war-updates-sky-news-blog-12978800?postid=6959887#liveblog-body

LolaSmiles · 22/12/2023 14:51

That article from Sky News is upsetting.

This stood out to me:

The offensive has wreaked more destruction than the razing of Aleppo between 2012 and 2016, Ukraine's Mariupol last year at the hands of Russia or, proportionally, the Allied bombing of Germany in the Second World War.

I sincerely hope the grown ups get back in the room and start focusing on the level of harm that's being done to civilians rather than which man gets to make a name for himself to his supporters, which if we're honest is what too many leaders focus on.

FOJN · 22/12/2023 14:52

shockeditellyou · 22/12/2023 14:18

So can you explain why you choose to direct your outrage at Israel, which is at least a functioning, pluralist democracy for most of its citizens, and not the rest of the Middle Eastern countries which are complete basket cases for human rights?

Why is Israel so much more deserving of condemnation from you? Why did it take the Hamas butchery against Israel for there to be sufficient traffic for MN to create a Middle East section? Are perhaps the Syrians less important?

And would you condemn the US for supporting any other Middle East nation, if you are using human rights abuses as a yardstick?

Show quote history

You should check out the UK sanctions list, most of those "Middle Eastern countries which are complete basket cases for human rights" are on it.

UK govt to Israeli govt - "we hope you win"

GreyGreyGrey · 22/12/2023 15:07

FOJN · 22/12/2023 14:17

That disconnect is bridged by the term "illegal occupation".

An occupying force has certain obligations and the Israeli government can't even meet those.

If Palestinians are stateless, who made them so?

I know you said you had a political science degree and everything but do you think multiple international humanitarian agencies with an army of human rights lawyers are wrong when they describe Israel as an apartheid state.

Frankly given the number of international laws it's breaking I'd describe it as a rogue state.

Show quote history

Exactly, how you see all the complaints depends entirely on who you think has a right to the land.

Personally, I think a two state solution is the only workable answer. Everyone is going to have to compromise. No one is completely in the right and no one is going to get everything they want.