Has anyone changed their mind from what they have read on here?

[mollyfolk]

we’ve argued a lot. We’ve backed up our arguments with lots of proof. Has anyone changed their mind or viewpoint - I’m just interested?

it would be lovely if we didn’t argue here and just let everyone state their views.

I’ve spent most of my life in Ireland, where you’d be hard pressed, in the present day, to meet someone who doesn’t agree that the Israeli authorities treat Palestinian’s terribly. It wouldn’t be controversial here to say - isn’t it awful what’s happening in Gaza - in any situation whether when I lived in the UK it was a lot more controversial and wouldn’t be a suitable thing to mention in work for example.

I haven’t changed my mind but I’m a lot more educated about anti semitism and have more understanding of the viewpoint of people who support the Israeli government.

No and I’ve stopped looking at these pages because there too many Hamas apologists.

You've stopped looking, but here you are posting on the thread?

Yes, I think so. I was pro-Palestine but now I'm not.

And I feel there's too many genocide apologists. Maybe our common ground is that we care deeply about protecting the life of innocent civilians in the region

Israel is not committing genocide (and nor is Hamas).

I do not agree with this statement " Israel is an occupying force committing genocide".

however I appreciate people on both sides on MN posting their views as it is useful for all of us to hear the views of others.

I don't believe you.

My views haven't changed at all. I've always stood with the oppressed and not the oppressors.

Why has it changed for you?

I would be interested to know too. As more and more Palestinians are killed you change your mind about them?

@Xenia can I ask which element of this statement you disagree with and why?

Israel is an occupying force. This isn’t a matter of political debate or opinion, it is just a fact under international law.

https://news.un.org/en/story/2022/10/1129722

with regard to whether or not Israel is committing genocide, I understand that people have different views on that. I would ask though if you believe you are better informed or have greater expertise on genocide as a legal and political concept than the 800+ genocide and legal scholars and historians who signed a letter sounding the alarm about a grave risk of genocide in Gaza. Bear in mind this was back in October so didn’t even take into account what’s happened since. In addition, are you more experienced than the (now former) New York director of the UN’s high commissioner for human rights who resigned calling it a “textbook case” of genocide.

https://twailr.com/public-statement-scholars-warn-of-potential-genocide-in-gaza/

It is anti-Semitic to conflate Israel with Israeli military action in the same way if I were to describe what Palestine has done to the Israeli hostages is disgusting when it was Hamas terrorists.

"Israel is an occupying force. This isn’t a matter of political debate or opinion, it is just a fact under international law."

Wrong. You have linked to an UN inquiry and is opinion based.

I am criticizing a country. These are the actions of a state army on behalf of a country. If I said I find Pakistan’s treatment of Afghan refugees disgusting, does that make me an Islamophobe? No it doesn’t.

Are you really going to try and argue Israel is not an occupier under international law? because I’ve seen a lot of rubbish posted on these threads over the past two months but that one would really take the cake.

I've reported obviously anti-Semitic posts and have been told they do not break MN talk guidelines.

No I think you are criticising the Jewish state by saying Israel - not its government or its military. Therefore, I think your post is anti-Semitic.

Yep.

I find it so weird, this message that suddenly we are supposed to separate a countries military from the country? Is it a sign that even Israel supporters know they have gone too far now that they are trying to convince us that the Israeli defence force has nothing to do with Israel, that conflating the Israeli defence force with the country that has trained them, pays for them and gives them their orders is now antisemitic and you must pretend that they are the same as a terrorist organisation(but you can absolutely not say that the IDF have carried out acts of terror).

How do you separate a countries military from the country that they are serving and taking direct orders from? Why would you want to pretend that a countries military is nothing to do with that country unless you know that their actions have been absolutely wicked? Usually a countries military is a point of pride, they serve and protect their country, they don't try and pretend that their military is some kind of rogue organisation.

Then I suggest you educate yourself and go look up some UN Security Council resolutions.

"How do you separate a countries military from the country that they are serving and taking direct orders from? "

The Gazans voted for Hamas and this terrorist militia carried out the worst terrorist atrocities of this century. But I do not describe Hamas as Gazan or Palestinian which is what they are. Nobody says Palestinians carried out the attacks.

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2006/1/26/hamas-wins-huge-majority

So you are saying the IDF is the same as a terrorist organisation? Thanks for the clarification.

I suggest you educate yourself that the UN, whose SG made excuses for the Hamas attacks are anti Israel. I also suggest you educate yourself in talking to people politely.

https://www.fdd.org/analysis/2023/11/08/united-nations-bigotry-towards-israel-unrwa-anti-semitism-poisons-palestinian-youth/

So applying your twisted logic any criticism of Israel as a country is automatically antisemitic because Israel has chosen to define itself as a Jewish state. Therefore Israel is immune to criticism. How convenient!

A military presence is typically part of the criteria for determining if a territory is occupied but there is quite widespread consensus that Israel exerts sufficient control over Gaza to be considered an occupying force.

The ICC agrees that Gaza is occupied by Israel and I would like to think they know something about international law.

https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/menasource/gaza-israel-occupied-international-law/

"In contrast, many prominent international institutions, organizations and bodies—including the International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC), the United Nations Independent International Commission of Inquiry on the Occupied Palestinian Territory, UN General Assembly (UNGA), European Union (EU), African Union, International Criminal Court (ICC) (both Pre-Trial Chamber I and the Office of the Prosecutor), Amnesty International, and Human Rights Watch—as well as international legal experts and other organizations, argue that Israel has occupied Palestinian territories including Gaza since 1967.1 While they acknowledge that Israel no longer had the traditional marker of effective control after the disengagement—a military presence—they hold that with the help of technology, it has maintained the requisite control in other ways."

Is my logic twisted?

Is is only Israel that has defined itself as a Jewish state?