Has anyone changed their mind from what they have read on here?

[mollyfolk]

we’ve argued a lot. We’ve backed up our arguments with lots of proof. Has anyone changed their mind or viewpoint - I’m just interested?

it would be lovely if we didn’t argue here and just let everyone state their views.

I’ve spent most of my life in Ireland, where you’d be hard pressed, in the present day, to meet someone who doesn’t agree that the Israeli authorities treat Palestinian’s terribly. It wouldn’t be controversial here to say - isn’t it awful what’s happening in Gaza - in any situation whether when I lived in the UK it was a lot more controversial and wouldn’t be a suitable thing to mention in work for example.

I haven’t changed my mind but I’m a lot more educated about anti semitism and have more understanding of the viewpoint of people who support the Israeli government.

Yes the country is responsible. Like I said I'm sure not all citizens agree but yes I would say the UK voted for Brexit. The US banned abortion. Israel are killing 10000s of people.

The Tories are still in power after a decade in the UK. We just can't seem to get rid of them either. Same principle.

Presumably the reason the tories are in power is because people vote for them. Not sure what’s going on with the Israeli government but either they also have the majority vote or they’re somehow managing to stay in power with no majority.

What I find so depressing is the double standards. Israel has conducted hundreds of forensic investigations. There are thousands of pieces of evidence bagged up, examined, and catalogued. Hours upon hours of video and audio footage of the attacks, screened to journalists from every major and domestic outlet. Footage captured both by the perpetrators, by ordinary civilians, and by the bodycams of IDF soldiers. Much of it was even livestreamed or posted to social media in real time. HOURS of it, collected, examined, run through facial recognition software, catalogued, archived. The best pathologists in the country have conducted hundreds of autopsies to reveal causes of death and what happened to the bodies before/after death. Hundreds of rape kits. Eye witness testimony. The testimony of captured enemy soldiers. Testimony of former hostages. Evidence uncovered in the tunnels and under the Al-Shifa hospital. It must be the biggest forensic operation in Israeli history. Some of the bodies which were burned took months to identify.

And yet, STILL you have people deny the extent and methods of the atrocity, and STILL claim “there is no proof”.

Yet on the Palestinian side, the accusation is the evidence. Dozens of people claiming to be victims of white phosphorus despite the fact nobody is using it on them, none of them are exhibiting signs of exposure, and in some of the viral footage… it’s not even white lol. I saw one video on social media claiming to be white phosphorus yet a bunch of Palestinians are actually approaching it and kicking it around lol, it’s not white, it’s not phosphorus, it’s clearly a smoke bomb and unless the IDF have very strong arms it wasn’t thrown by them! More seriously people are actually passing off footage of Assad’s crimes in Syria as Palestinians… of course the same people didn’t care about the people in the footage when they were first reported as Syrian.

@whattheactualfrog

Washington Post has confirmed white phosphorous being used, for a start.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/investigations/2023/12/11/israel-us-white-phosphorus-lebanon/

Israel used U.S.-supplied white phosphorus munitions in an October attack in southern Lebanon that injured at least nine civilians in what a rights group says should be investigated as a war crime, according to a Washington Post analysis of shell fragments found in a small village.

A journalist working for The Post found remnants of three 155mm artillery rounds fired into Dheira, near the border of Israel, which incinerated at least four homes, residents said. The rounds eject felt wedges saturated with white phosphorus, which burns at high temperatures, producing billowing smoke that obscures troop movements as the substance falls haphazardly over a wide area. It can stick to skin, causing potentially fatal burns and respiratory damage, and its use near civilian areas is generally prohibited under international humanitarian law.

Then you are a part of creating hatred and division between nations. A country is not a direct representation of it's citizens.

And each of them horrific and wrong but it does not come close to a global conspiracy to wipe out Jewish people which is what some posters have suggested and what I was referring to. I acknowledged that anti semitism and a threat to Jewish people and isolated attacks are happening but not on the level some posters have suggested. Unfortunately we can pick any vulnerable group of people and find examples of attacks and discrimination against them, in Ireland for example there has been an increase in homophobic attacks in Dublin City centre in recent years, my point is Jewish people are not currently at risk of genocide. Hamas are a terrorist group and their attack in Israel is not representative of how the majority of people think about Jews and it was unequivocally condemned worldwide.

I don't wish to downplay the seriousness of an increase in homophobic attacks in Dublin City centre. But I really don't see what it has to do with a well-funded terrorist organisation appearing on global TV channels and announcing their intention to kill an entire race of people (the very definition of genocide), days after killing - in the most brutal, sadistic manner - well over a thousand of them in a single day.

The fact that you would see an equivalence between the two is quite astounding to me.

I don't know why you think governments are elected for if not to represent their citizens and country. It sucks when your government does things that you don't agree with, look at the 100s of 1000s of people in the UK and the US who have taken to the streets to say 'not in my name' about their governments support of Israel, because whether people like them or not, agree with them or not governments do represent their citizens on the world stage. That's kind of the whole point of elected representatives.

@Opalfru1ty I agree with you wholeheartedly. Astounding.

Articles like this remind me of what is being faced...

apple.news/A5ysaZZFJQTib5T2Ep0evcg

And that frightened girl in back of the jeep.

Except that "Israel" is blamed repeatedly as if Israelis were in some way separate and distinct.
Just the usual bollocks trotted out by the ignorant.

The general population does not have a significant say in the actions of elected officials. Platforms are often run with little relevance to the decisions made in government. In the case of Netanyahu, he was elected into power (during a ceasefire, where yes, Gazans were still very much being oppressed) without having promised to spearhead a genocide against Palestinians. Had he been vocal about that intention in the event of a terrorist attack by Hamas, I would be genuinely shocked if the majority of the right-wing voters in Israel elected him.

I do not blame Palestinians for the actions of Hamas. I do not blame Russians for the actions of Putin's government. I do not blame Americans for the actions of Trump's government or Biden's government. Why should Israelis be held to account?

You were the one that mentioned isolated attacks on Jews in your response to me and I was highlighting that there are many vulnerable groups of people at risk of similar attacks. My original post was responding to previous posters claims that without Israel there would be another holocaust and I queried where they had evidence for this. What Hamas have done and are doing is seperate to this, they are a terrorist organisation that are attacking and threatening Israel, it is not a global force that is capable of genocide, no matter what they say or claim they will do and the rest of the world would not sit back and let it happen anyway. Whereas they seem to be in the case of Palestine at the moment.

The tories are useless, but at least they aren’t killing thousands of innocent men woman and children on a daily basis, they are complicit in the bombing however and they will pay for this at the ballot box.

I believe I mentioned 2 separate attacks on individuals, 1 example of mob violence, 1 large-scale attack, one failed large-scale attack and one stated intention of future large scale attacks. These are not isolated incidents.

I really can't be bothered with this nit-picking, though. If you can't see the threat to Jews there, I'm afraid there's nothing more I can say to you.

Well consider the thousands of years of Jewish history and how many times Jews have been persecuted in that time. I can’t see any reason why that pattern would now be finished. There is no imminent genocide of Jews in the West, but we can’t see the future and given the past, it’s very clear to me why they would feel the need for their own country. I can’t see why anyone would claim this isn’t necessary, particularly because even without the risk of persecution it is generally accepted that national self-determination is a good thing.

I think we basically agree then - the Jews do have the right to a homeland (this is zionism), but not at any cost. Given that the homeland exists, any further debate is about where the borders are, who has the right to live within them and how they are secured. These are issues that the peace process has failed to resolve.

But you don't pretend that the Russian army is acting of its own accord do you? So why would we pretend the IDF is? We say the Russian/Ukraine war. We say Russia invaded Ukraine. You can split hairs all you want, I get that it is shameful to have an army and a government like Israels, but pretending that the IDF are some rogue unit not a military representing a country is just bananas.

I'm sure if the people of Israel disagree with their actions we will see 100s of 1000s of people take to the streets in protest like in pretty much every other country, government officials fired and military personnel charged. They have voices, if they want to use them I'm sure they will.

Your post is full of holes.

For example, invitations to the private screenings were only sent to carefully handpicked journalists, media personalities and influencers. They have never released them for any other set of people, the general public are not allowed to see them, we only have these carefully selected peoples word for the content. Their insta and X accounts the next day had almost the exact same words as each other, as if they were using pre-released propaganda.
It is on record that white prosperous was used, the horrific injuries have been recorded and verified. Doctors were also seeing horrific blast injuries not compatible with usual weapons of war.
Some of the awful pictures from 07 Oct were taken from japanese websites and others verified and dated pre Oct 07.
The tunnels under Al Shifa that so many civilians and medical workers died for were a joke, a few guns and no Hamas, not the command and control centre for Hamas the IDF told the world about. So much for the Israeli intelligence operations.
You say 100’s of rape kits were used, Israel have stated that no rape kit evidence was collected at all ( let me be clear I’m not saying rape didn’t happen) I’m saying they have no properly evidenced material. The lies about the 40 beheaded babies and baby in the oven were retracted several days later, not before they had gone around the world. The Israeli secret service, the government spokesmen and the IDF lied continually, is it any wonder people don’t know what to believe ? They cried wolf too many times.

Hundreds of thousands of civilians dead, hospitals bombed but the “so professional” Israeli armed forces with the help of the western governments still haven’t found Hamas ?? Not so good really are they !

@OuiOuiKitty Even for what some would call a biased news source, thousands of Israelis were protesting Netanyahu even before October 7th.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/no-forgiveness-for-dictatorship-protesters-to-rally-against-overhaul-for-38th-week/

Not changed my mind as such - started by feeling conflicted and like there is no easy answer. I currently still feel that way. However I have gone back and forth in understanding different view points and why there is so much emotion and strong feeling on each side. I have sympathy for all ‘sides’ and an understanding that for most people it is not out of hate but out of their understanding of the situation. Of course there are disgusting people on both sides who will always exist.

I find it all very tragic.

@OuiOuiKitty The war is between Russia and Ukraine, but I would never say that Russia is responsible for murdering Ukrainians. Putin and his cronies are responsible. Russian civilians had nothing to do with it, even moreso because Putin is a dictator.

@Opalfru1ty

Agree I can't be bothered with the nit picking either but to clarify for the record I never once suggested in any of my posts that Jews were not currently under threat.

The irony.