Page 11 | Has anyone changed their mind from what they have read on here?

mollyfolk · 2023-12-15T23:33:26+00:00

we’ve argued a lot. We’ve backed up our arguments with lots of proof. Has anyone changed their mind or viewpoint - I’m just interested? it would be lovely if we didn’t argue here and just let everyone state their views. I’ve spent most of my life in Ireland, where you’d be hard pressed, in the present day, to meet someone who doesn’t agree that the Israeli authorities treat Palestinian’s terribly. It wouldn’t be controversial here to say - isn’t it awful what’s happening in Gaza - in any situation whether when I lived in the UK it was a lot more controversial and wouldn’t be a suitable thing to mention in work for example. I haven’t changed my mind but I’m a lot more educated about anti semitism and have more understanding of the viewpoint of people who support the Israeli government.

plusjamais · 17/12/2023 10:31

headstone · 17/12/2023 10:28

When they clearly were safer as now they are dead because of the way IDF treat civilians in Gaza, and sadly that lady with her sweet red head children most likely died from Israeli carpet bombs or the white phosphorus.

"most likely".

There is no point even discussing this when folks like this apply 'my side is right' to literally every aspect of this very fucking horrendous situation in Gaza. This is how conspiracy theories start.

PepperIsHere · 17/12/2023 10:31

I haven't changed my mind about the rights of all people to live with dignity and without fear of violence.

Nor have I changed my mind about how bigoted and ignorant so many posters are about Israel.

stomachameleon · 17/12/2023 10:33

www.timesofisrael.com/hostage-inbar-haiman-27-murdered-in-hamas-captivity-officials-say/

Safer?

And you know nothing of the Bibas children (as neither do Hamas apparently) and as there is no fundamental proof either way (and the Red Cross aren't allowed to see them) we Don't know what has happened.

OuiOuiKitty · 17/12/2023 10:36

WibbleWobbleFlop · 17/12/2023 10:23

There is a lot of minimization happening in this post. "Several hundred innocent Israelis" murdered? Try almost two thousand in a day, targeted towards civilians, with no intention to target the IDF.

Palestine has suffered thousands upon thousands of deaths, which is absolutely horrific and inexcusable. This is at the hands of the IDF (and Hamas through both misfire and neglect). Absolutely nobody is denying this. Israel has had it's own share of suffering and persecution by Hamas, other terrorist groups, and governments worldwide. This is being hugely overlooked by many posters.

Please stop blaming "Israel" and focus your attention on the IDF and Hamas as the forces at work here.

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Sorry but this is ridiculous. The IDF aren't an entity of their own. They work for Israel. They carry out the orders of the democratically elected Israeli government. The government that the citizens of Israel chose to represent them only last year. They aren't a terrorist organisation, they are Israels military and therefore yes it is 'Israel'. Does every Israeli citizen agree with their actions, probably not, it would be rare that everyone would agree but the IDF represent Israel and act on the orders of the recently elected Israeli government.

headstone · 17/12/2023 10:39

Plusjamais literally thousands of women and children crushed by Israeli bombs and tanks so not really a conspiracy theory that she and her children could be one of the numbers.

backtowinter · 17/12/2023 10:42

headstone · 17/12/2023 10:28

When they clearly were safer as now they are dead because of the way IDF treat civilians in Gaza, and sadly that lady with her sweet red head children most likely died from Israeli carpet bombs or the white phosphorus.

And you state this with utter confidence.

Anotherdayanotherdiet · 17/12/2023 10:42

I was more wondering what you were smoking.
And yet her post made complete sense. Are you sure you’re not the one smoking.

stomachameleon · 17/12/2023 10:43

Totally** a conspiracy theory as Hamas denied ever having them, changed their minds several times, released footage of telling their father they were dead, etc etc

YetAnotherSpartacus · 17/12/2023 10:45

And yet her post made complete sense. Are you sure you’re not the one smoking.

It makes total sense to those hooked on misinformation and conspiracy theories with anti-semitism at their base.

Perhaps the smoke emanates from the history books set on fire?

backtowinter · 17/12/2023 10:45

headstone · 17/12/2023 10:28

When they clearly were safer as now they are dead because of the way IDF treat civilians in Gaza, and sadly that lady with her sweet red head children most likely died from Israeli carpet bombs or the white phosphorus.

And yet if they hadn't been kidnapped by terrorists they'd have been safer still

What part did you think Hamas have played in all of this?

backtowinter · 17/12/2023 10:48

Anotherdayanotherdiet · 17/12/2023 10:42

I was more wondering what you were smoking.
And yet her post made complete sense. Are you sure you’re not the one smoking.

It maybe made sense to you

To others it was just more of the same 🤷🏻‍♀️

I don't smoke at all BTW

ismu · 17/12/2023 10:49

I've changed my mind, because I believed that the US democrats and Biden were rational and would not actively back war crimes and indiscriminate bombing- especially after what they learned in Iraq.
I've also learned that a lot of people can't see that Zionism≠Jewish and anti Israeli views ≠ anti semitism. It's amazing that people can think this way. A religious or race based homeland is something deeply sinister and sounds to me so like "send them back where they came from" Alf Garnett racism.
It's also amazing to me that people will defend the endless violence as justified rather than just want it to stop.

The IDF disgust me now as much as the actions of Hamas that started this, but the defenders of continued violence seem just as happy to send the young soldiers of the IDF into a meat grinder where they are brutalised and their officers are being killed at disproportionate rate.

Anotherdayanotherdiet · 17/12/2023 10:53

Nor have I changed my mind about how bigoted and ignorant so many posters are about Israel

Its not Israel as such more it’s government. They’re a bunch of right wing loons who support settlements and view the Palestinians as irrelevant.
Most pro Israelis know this BUT even so you MUSTN’T criticise Israel or you’re just a bigot.

I mean geez can they not just get rid of their lunatic government? They grumble that the Palestinians couldn’t fight off Hamas but Bibi going strong after a decade or more even though everyone hates him. Democracy!

Thereissomelight · 17/12/2023 11:00

WibbleWobbleFlop · 17/12/2023 10:23

There is a lot of minimization happening in this post. "Several hundred innocent Israelis" murdered? Try almost two thousand in a day, targeted towards civilians, with no intention to target the IDF.

Palestine has suffered thousands upon thousands of deaths, which is absolutely horrific and inexcusable. This is at the hands of the IDF (and Hamas through both misfire and neglect). Absolutely nobody is denying this. Israel has had it's own share of suffering and persecution by Hamas, other terrorist groups, and governments worldwide. This is being hugely overlooked by many posters.

Please stop blaming "Israel" and focus your attention on the IDF and Hamas as the forces at work here.

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700 Israeli non-military civilians were killed on Oct 7. According to Israeli social security records.
The murder of 700 innocent people was appalling - many of them were peaceful people who had opposed Netanyahu’s appalling policies and had tried to reach out in friendship to the Palestinians. But it was not 2000. Let’s try to stick to the facts. There have been enough lies.

Opalfru1ty · 17/12/2023 11:04

Dulra · 17/12/2023 10:04

Many posters further back in the thread did state there would be another holocaust if Israel was not there. I am confused who they think would carry that out? When I look at the world today and look at the most vulnerable in society at risk of persecution because of their colour, creed, sexual orientation, the refugees fleeing for safety, the abused, the homeless, those in poverty, Jewish people do not come to mind. I am not for a minute saying antisemitism doesn't exist and the current threat level is higher than normal but the belief that without Israel (which literally no one is suggesting) Jewish people are at risk worldwide from another holocaust is such a massive leap and extremely unlikely.
I know I will get flamed for this post but you have to be realistic, Israel is going no where and Jewish people are not at risk of genocide.

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I know I will get flamed for this post but you have to be realistic, Israel is going no where and Jewish people are not at risk of genocide

In recent weeks...

Hamas committed the biggest single atrocity against Jews since the Holocaust
there was an attempted attack by an antisemitic mob on an Israeli passenger flight landing in Russia
a Jewish woman was stabbed in France and had antisemitic graffiti drawn on her front door
a Jewish woman was attacked in London and left for dead, with CCTV footage capturing the attackers referencing her ethnicity
The leaders of Hamas have appeared on numerous middle eastern TV channels reiterating their commitment to wiping out all Jews
Bomb plots against Jewish people and sites have been uncovered in Germany and Denmark

That's off the top of my head. Truly a mystery why Jews feel under threat.

Livinginanotherworld · 17/12/2023 11:11

Thereissomelight · 17/12/2023 09:53

Israel sets up in 1948 with a LOT of financial help from the US.

Illegally and violently extends its borders. Persecutes and murders Palestinians in their thousands (per UN stats)

Palestinians hate Israel. Traumatised and dispossessed groups form violent terrorist organisations. Several hundred innocent Israelis are brutally murdered.

Israel says “See we told you need to defend ourselves”

Israel murders thousands of innocent Palestinian children in a few weeks, destroys schools, hospitals and utilities, clears 1.5 million Palestinians from their homes. The world protests. World leaders everywhere demand a ceasefire, warning that a generation of trauma will lead to more terrorism.

”Antisemitism!” says Israel. “Pro-Hamas. Victim-blaming. See we told you we need to defend ourselves. This land is ours and we’re going to take it.”

Israel proceeds to go completely rogue, blatantly bulldozing and shooting random people for literally no reason at all, including its own citizens who were holding up white flags.

Am I missing anything?

In a nutshell 👏👏

EasterIssland · 17/12/2023 11:13

Opalfru1ty · 17/12/2023 11:04

I know I will get flamed for this post but you have to be realistic, Israel is going no where and Jewish people are not at risk of genocide

In recent weeks...

Hamas committed the biggest single atrocity against Jews since the Holocaust
there was an attempted attack by an antisemitic mob on an Israeli passenger flight landing in Russia
a Jewish woman was stabbed in France and had antisemitic graffiti drawn on her front door
a Jewish woman was attacked in London and left for dead, with CCTV footage capturing the attackers referencing her ethnicity
The leaders of Hamas have appeared on numerous middle eastern TV channels reiterating their commitment to wiping out all Jews
Bomb plots against Jewish people and sites have been uncovered in Germany and Denmark

That's off the top of my head. Truly a mystery why Jews feel under threat.

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Shall we list the things Palestinians have gone through in the recent weeks?

child killed in USA
3 teenagers attacked
20k killed.
many thousand injured

WibbleWobbleFlop · 17/12/2023 11:14

OuiOuiKitty · 17/12/2023 10:36

Sorry but this is ridiculous. The IDF aren't an entity of their own. They work for Israel. They carry out the orders of the democratically elected Israeli government. The government that the citizens of Israel chose to represent them only last year. They aren't a terrorist organisation, they are Israels military and therefore yes it is 'Israel'. Does every Israeli citizen agree with their actions, probably not, it would be rare that everyone would agree but the IDF represent Israel and act on the orders of the recently elected Israeli government.

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I'm sorry, what?! You are blaming an entire country's worth of people for the decisions of very few. Yes, Netanyahu was elected. So was Trump. So was Johnson. I do not hold citizens often with little political knowledge responsible for a government's actions post-election. The people of Israel by and large don't even support Netanyahu.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/poll-80-of-israelis-say-netanyahu-must-publicly-take-responsibility-for-oct-7-failures/

https://www.aljazeera.com/features/2023/11/18/a-lot-of-discontent-netanyahu-alone-as-israel-turns-on-wartime-pm

Do you blame the entirety of the UK for our government sending refugees to Rwanda? Do you blame the entirety of the United States for making abortion a crime? Even people who voted for the right wing in all of these places take issue with these decisions.

Israel is not responsible. Those representing the people of Israel are responsible.

‘A lot of discontent’: Netanyahu alone as Israel turns on wartime PM

From families of Hamas captives to politicians in his own government, Netanyahu’s popularity is at an all-time low.

https://www.aljazeera.com/features/2023/11/18/a-lot-of-discontent-netanyahu-alone-as-israel-turns-on-wartime-pm

WibbleWobbleFlop · 17/12/2023 11:16

EasterIssland · 17/12/2023 11:13

Shall we list the things Palestinians have gone through in the recent weeks?

child killed in USA
3 teenagers attacked
20k killed.
many thousand injured

Show quote history

So because Palestinians are suffering, Jewish people are totally safe? Whataboutery doesn't change the reality for Jewish people.

FOJN · 17/12/2023 11:17

stomachameleon · 17/12/2023 10:29

@WibbleWobbleFlop that is their MO. Sow the seeds of doubt around Israel... how many people died?
And no mention of rockets into Israel daily sent from built up areas? People terrified in bomb shelters, rocket attacks on hospitals (yesterday), that perpetual sense of fear.
There is only recognition for one 'side' and it shows an enormous lack of awareness.

20,000 people, mostly women and children, in Gaza dead, civilian infrastructure destroyed, over 400 IDF soldiers dead, 2000 disabled AND STILL rockets are being fired from Gaza.

What exactly has the IDF accomplished? If their objective was to destroy Hamas they are, as predicted, failing and yet the killing goes on with no end in sight.

Opalfru1ty · 17/12/2023 11:17

EasterIssland · 17/12/2023 11:13

Shall we list the things Palestinians have gone through in the recent weeks?

child killed in USA
3 teenagers attacked
20k killed.
many thousand injured

Show quote history

I was replying to a specific question about Jews feeling under threat. I didn't realise I was supposed to mention everyone else in the whole world who is currently suffering or feeling threatened.

WibbleWobbleFlop · 17/12/2023 11:18

Anotherdayanotherdiet · 17/12/2023 10:53

Nor have I changed my mind about how bigoted and ignorant so many posters are about Israel

Its not Israel as such more it’s government. They’re a bunch of right wing loons who support settlements and view the Palestinians as irrelevant.
Most pro Israelis know this BUT even so you MUSTN’T criticise Israel or you’re just a bigot.

I mean geez can they not just get rid of their lunatic government? They grumble that the Palestinians couldn’t fight off Hamas but Bibi going strong after a decade or more even though everyone hates him. Democracy!

Edited

The Tories are still in power after a decade in the UK. We just can't seem to get rid of them either. Same principle.

Anotherdayanotherdiet · 17/12/2023 11:19

I'm sorry, what?! You are blaming an entire country's worth of people for the decisions of very few. Yes, Netanyahu was elected. So was Trump. So was Johnson. I do not hold citizens often with little political knowledge responsible for a government's actions post-election. The people of Israel by and large don't even support Netanyahu

So are you saying there are very few people in Israel with any political knowledge?

Seems more likely the governments corrupt if the majority don’t support them but they’re still in power.

WibbleWobbleFlop · 17/12/2023 11:21

FOJN · 17/12/2023 11:17

20,000 people, mostly women and children, in Gaza dead, civilian infrastructure destroyed, over 400 IDF soldiers dead, 2000 disabled AND STILL rockets are being fired from Gaza.

What exactly has the IDF accomplished? If their objective was to destroy Hamas they are, as predicted, failing and yet the killing goes on with no end in sight.

Show quote history

When have a defended the IDF? I have openly stated that their actions are abhorrent and inexcusable. It is very important to remember, however, that they are not the only significant contributors to the deaths of Palestinians and Israelis in this conflict.

WibbleWobbleFlop · 17/12/2023 11:23

Anotherdayanotherdiet · 17/12/2023 11:19

I'm sorry, what?! You are blaming an entire country's worth of people for the decisions of very few. Yes, Netanyahu was elected. So was Trump. So was Johnson. I do not hold citizens often with little political knowledge responsible for a government's actions post-election. The people of Israel by and large don't even support Netanyahu

So are you saying there are very few people in Israel with any political knowledge?

Seems more likely the governments corrupt if the majority don’t support them but they’re still in power.

I don't know every Israeli citizen, so I don't know how much political knowledge they have. If they are anything like the citizens of the UK, they by and large have very little insight into politics. I would also argue that the Netanyahu government is corrupt.