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Conflict in the Middle East

IDF shoot hostages in Gaza after 'mistakenly identifying them as a threat'

446 replies

Struggggggling · 15/12/2023 18:56

https://www.lbc.co.uk/news/idf-kill-israeli-hostages-mistakenly-identifying-hamas-gaza/

Previous hostages warned this would happen, tragic events. There is no winner in this conflict only losers.

Do you think Israel will now change tactics or if any histage swaps will take priority?

IDF kill three Israeli hostages after 'mistakenly identifying them as threat' in Gaza

IDF soldiers have shot and killed three Israeli hostages after mistakenly identifying them as a threat during their onslaught on Hamas.

https://www.lbc.co.uk/news/idf-kill-israeli-hostages-mistakenly-identifying-hamas-gaza

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Humdingerydoo · 15/12/2023 19:13

Struggggggling · 15/12/2023 19:08

"We were in tunnels, terrified that it would not be Hamas, but Israel, that would kill us, and then they would say Hamas killed you,"

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.businessinsider.com/freed-israeli-captives-hamas-terrified-idf-airstrikes-would-kill-them-2023-12%3famp

Great quote, but that's not what happened. Israel killed them thinking they were suicide bombers and then informed the families, and the world, straight away. So sharing that particular quote seems very, very off.

Struggggggling · 15/12/2023 19:23

@Humdingerydoo I understand one is a quote due to fears of being bombed and in the other case unfortunately the 3 people killed were shot mistakenly.

Released hostages have said that they were moved from place to place and that the IDF would have had no idea where they were or if they were Israeli.

I dont see how the current path will bring back hostages or reduce the chances of both Israeli and Palestinian civilians dying.

I've said from the beginning special forces should have been sent in to both deal with Hamas and to get the Israeli hostages.

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Pizdietz · 15/12/2023 19:24

It's terribly sad, but if you are sharing this as proof of IDF ruthlessness I'd say there is a difference between this tragic error and Hamas deliberately targeting people who are no threat at all e.g. festivalgoers, babies, grannies.

ssd · 15/12/2023 19:25

Thats so bloody sad. This war is bringing nothing but heartache to everyone involved.

Pizdietz · 15/12/2023 19:39

Israel's position on hostages has for years been pretty hard-nosed, basically because they are used to Hamas manipulating things by using hostages and they have had to make some tough decisions in the interests of the greater good.

It's not that they don't care about the hostages, more that they know that caring about them will be exploited to serve terrorism:

"Since the birth of the state of Israel in 1948, the threat of illegal border crossings has been a pervasive fact of daily life. The trauma of losses suffered as a result of terrorism has always been felt on nearly all levels of society. Terrorism has threatened the country’s deterrent capability. As a result of all these factors, Israel has adopted a tough and uncompromising policy against terrorists in general and hostage-takers in particular. No concessions are made during a hostage situation; a rescue operation should be mounted as soon as all preparations are over and once the tactical situation permits it; and all incidents must be terminated close to their inception, preferably 24 hours."

Imagine being in that position.

This article is pretty old: it dates from 2002, so before the 2011 prison swap deal with Hamas whereby 1,027 prisoners were released in exchange for Israeli soldier Gilad Shalit. Many of these went on to repeat further acts of terrorism.

https://www.ojp.gov/ncjrs/virtual-library/abstracts/israeli-response-hostage-taking

Israeli Response to Hostage-Taking | Office of Justice Programs

https://www.ojp.gov/ncjrs/virtual-library/abstracts/israeli-response-hostage-taking

Struggggggling · 15/12/2023 19:42

@Pizdietz no, the ruthlessness could be seen with the collective punishment in which innocent civilians, babies and children suffered when aid trucks delivering food were/are denied going into Gaza from Egypt.
Or when half the missiles used are imprecise 'dumb bombs' in which you cannot land a precise attack.
Or even when the IDF paraded naked men and staged videos of them handing over guns - somehow the IDF took the mens clothes but apparently didnt see the rifles they were holding...
The list goes on

This thread was to show that the way Israel is currently carrying out activity is not helping them retrieve hostages and has resulted in a large proportion of civilian death.

Hence why I asked if people believe their will be a change in tactics - e.g. Biden yesterday called for Israel to move to using special ops forces in the coming weeks.

Do you think this may be brought forward and the IDF are pulled out of Gaza?

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Pizdietz · 15/12/2023 20:02

Struggggggling · 15/12/2023 19:42

@Pizdietz no, the ruthlessness could be seen with the collective punishment in which innocent civilians, babies and children suffered when aid trucks delivering food were/are denied going into Gaza from Egypt.
Or when half the missiles used are imprecise 'dumb bombs' in which you cannot land a precise attack.
Or even when the IDF paraded naked men and staged videos of them handing over guns - somehow the IDF took the mens clothes but apparently didnt see the rifles they were holding...
The list goes on

This thread was to show that the way Israel is currently carrying out activity is not helping them retrieve hostages and has resulted in a large proportion of civilian death.

Hence why I asked if people believe their will be a change in tactics - e.g. Biden yesterday called for Israel to move to using special ops forces in the coming weeks.

Do you think this may be brought forward and the IDF are pulled out of Gaza?

I'm not a war strategist and without being on the ground in Gaza and without a history of living in that place, and without having access to the decisions being taken by the IDF from one moment to the next, and without access to the factors playing into those decisions, and without any experience of dealing with Hamas as a Gazan civilian or an Israeli, etc etc etc, I am basically talking out of my arse, just like everyone else on here trying to make sense of things.

To the points you raise, my feeling is that if Hamas had done what it was supposed to do and built a decent infrastructure in Gaza, instead of focusing all its considerable resources on stockpiling weapons to attack Israel and creating a rabbit warren of tunnels to avoid attack, and siting missile launchers around hospitals, schools, mosques, etc... then Gaza would not be on its knees relying on charity from outside to supply the basics for survival.

It is also clear from the ratio of metric tonnes of explosives dropped vs actual deaths that civilian casualties are being minimised, especially considering the nature of the conflict (trying to reach Hamas underground via sensitive targets).

"Parading" naked men is a misnomer for a fairly standard military practice that we are only getting to see thanks to social media. How would you check a crowd of men for explosives, knives, etc and keep them under control? It's about as much "parading" as the B-list celebs photographed in their bikinis at a distance through zoom lenses.

I note the use of fashionable terminology "collective punishment" (reinforcing the notion that Israel is committing war crimes). All wars can be called collective punishment, that's kind of what a war is.

Struggggggling · 15/12/2023 20:03

ssd · 15/12/2023 19:25

Thats so bloody sad. This war is bringing nothing but heartache to everyone involved.

It really is, I wish the US or another country would come forward as mediator to find a path of resolution as was done with the Good Friday agreement.
Both sides have done atrocious things, it doesn't help anyone to keep pointing the finger of blame.

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braticus · 15/12/2023 20:08

I think part of the problem could be that the IDF don't seem to differentiate between combatants and civilians. They just shoot at everything that moves.

ChardonnaysBeastlyCat · 15/12/2023 20:10

braticus · 15/12/2023 20:08

I think part of the problem could be that the IDF don't seem to differentiate between combatants and civilians. They just shoot at everything that moves.

That's because they are not fighting a regular army.

Pizdietz · 15/12/2023 20:12

braticus · 15/12/2023 20:08

I think part of the problem could be that the IDF don't seem to differentiate between combatants and civilians. They just shoot at everything that moves.

It probably does look like that.

Be honest, have a quick watch of this video and tell me how easy you would find it to differentiate "combatants" from "civilians" in the hundreds/thousands of Gazans who swarmed over the border on 7 October to maim, rape, slaughter and burn (according to reporters, and visible here)?

Watch: Bulldozer tears down section of Israel-Gaza border fence

Video captures a bulldozer tearing down a portion of the fence that marked the Israel-Gaza border after Hamas launched its biggest attack on Israel in decade...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E8eEUzyEBOM

Babyboomtastic · 15/12/2023 20:15

Pizdietz · 15/12/2023 20:02

I'm not a war strategist and without being on the ground in Gaza and without a history of living in that place, and without having access to the decisions being taken by the IDF from one moment to the next, and without access to the factors playing into those decisions, and without any experience of dealing with Hamas as a Gazan civilian or an Israeli, etc etc etc, I am basically talking out of my arse, just like everyone else on here trying to make sense of things.

To the points you raise, my feeling is that if Hamas had done what it was supposed to do and built a decent infrastructure in Gaza, instead of focusing all its considerable resources on stockpiling weapons to attack Israel and creating a rabbit warren of tunnels to avoid attack, and siting missile launchers around hospitals, schools, mosques, etc... then Gaza would not be on its knees relying on charity from outside to supply the basics for survival.

It is also clear from the ratio of metric tonnes of explosives dropped vs actual deaths that civilian casualties are being minimised, especially considering the nature of the conflict (trying to reach Hamas underground via sensitive targets).

"Parading" naked men is a misnomer for a fairly standard military practice that we are only getting to see thanks to social media. How would you check a crowd of men for explosives, knives, etc and keep them under control? It's about as much "parading" as the B-list celebs photographed in their bikinis at a distance through zoom lenses.

I note the use of fashionable terminology "collective punishment" (reinforcing the notion that Israel is committing war crimes). All wars can be called collective punishment, that's kind of what a war is.

Edited

Building a decent infrastructure?

Out of what?

The poor people of Gaza were for years denied macaroni, tomato puree, chocolate crayons, glasses...

The idea that a people who weren't even allowed A4 paper could have built a 'decent infrastructure ' is bonkers.

stormy4319trevor · 15/12/2023 20:25

Like a lot of people, I think a ceasefire is the safest way to recover hostages. Otherwise they may be killed by the bombing, starvation, disease etc. Or hurt during attempted rescue operations. It would not be giving in. Most of the children who survive will be missing limbs, blind, mute or suffering PTSD, suffer chronic illness, brain damage or otherwise disabled. They will be orphans, dependent on any help the world can give. Same for all the adults. There will be no housing and the population will be living in tents. There will be no hospitals, medication or health care. So, if Israel wanted to show strength they have done so and won their victory. It is tragic about the hostages and awful for their families. Israel should stop the attacks now.

Struggggggling · 15/12/2023 20:26

@Pizdietz I don't expect anyone here to be a war strategist - just like many of the threads on mumsnet I don't think anyone comes on this website looking for expert advice but rather opinions of everyday folk.

I've seen your posts on other threads and the empathy that comes through for the Palestinians is very limited - why is that?

I'm saddened you think the sexual assault of innocent men is justifiable. I understand the need to check for weapons, but once checked why can't the dignity of the innocent men be restored and their clothes returned?
Why march them through the streets naked?
Why record them and then share the videos?

In terms of the bombs and tunnels, the footage I have seen shows flattened homes and buildings, I have yet to see any tunnels destroyed by a bomb.
The use of these unguided missiles in such a densely populated area full of children is disgraceful.

I do hope you take time to consider and reflect on whether you would feel the same way for the things listed if it was Hamas conducting those actions on Israel.
And if you wouldn't feel the same, why?

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stormy4319trevor · 15/12/2023 20:30

I must say, I don't see that being ordered to strip at gunpoint, blindfolded, hands tied, and made to kneel, is at all like being a B list celebrity photographed in their bikini. That's a peculiar analogy.

fluffylittlebear · 15/12/2023 20:33

So sad and unnecessary. If they took more due care then this kind of thing wouldn't happen.

Sadly happens too often to those not a threat - thousands of innocent civilians including journalists, old women, babies, children, unarmed civilians, innocent men... which of course leads one to question their methods.

braticus · 15/12/2023 20:40

fluffylittlebear · 15/12/2023 20:33

So sad and unnecessary. If they took more due care then this kind of thing wouldn't happen.

Sadly happens too often to those not a threat - thousands of innocent civilians including journalists, old women, babies, children, unarmed civilians, innocent men... which of course leads one to question their methods.

They probably mistook them for Palestinian civilians. They've made pretty clear that they have no qualms about killing Palestinians unnecessarily.

Parkingt111 · 15/12/2023 20:40

stormy4319trevor · 15/12/2023 20:30

I must say, I don't see that being ordered to strip at gunpoint, blindfolded, hands tied, and made to kneel, is at all like being a B list celebrity photographed in their bikini. That's a peculiar analogy.

Exactly. The US even said those images were very concerning yet the way it's being portrayed and minimised here is shocking

Parkingt111 · 15/12/2023 20:41

@Pizdietz what is this supposed to mean??

I note the use of fashionable terminology "collective punishment"

fluffylittlebear · 15/12/2023 20:46

braticus · 15/12/2023 20:40

They probably mistook them for Palestinian civilians. They've made pretty clear that they have no qualms about killing Palestinians unnecessarily.

agreed :(

Toothyfruity · 15/12/2023 20:59

That's very sad. Not surprising unfortunately due to what the IDF has been doing in Gaza.

I saw today that 20% of the IDF soldiers who've died were killed by friendly fire.

PeasfullPerson · 15/12/2023 21:34

braticus · 15/12/2023 20:08

I think part of the problem could be that the IDF don't seem to differentiate between combatants and civilians. They just shoot at everything that moves.

That’s what I see

OuiOuiKitty · 15/12/2023 21:46

It's sad but unsurprising really. Just 3 more civillians in a long line of victims of the IDF.

RafaistheKingofClay · 15/12/2023 21:59

I don’t think anyone following the situation would be particularly surprised at this. There was an inevitability about it. It’s just that the people that the IDF have ‘mistakenly identified as terrorists’ don’t usually turn out to be quite so embarrassing for them.