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Conflict in the Middle East
Original poster

Do lots of people support Hamas?

691 replies

elprup · 03/12/2023 20:33

I just read this story and it is absolutely horrific

I saw ten Hamas terrorists beat and gang-rape an Israeli woman

https://mol.im/a/12820081

Is everyone on the pro-Palestine marches in London solely supporting the innocent civilians of Palestine (as I do too)? Or are there some people on these marches supporting the actions of Hamas as well?

I want to join the marches in support of innocent adults and kids in Gaza (and I would want to march for the same reasons on any pro Israel marches too), but I do not want to endorse Hamas in any shape or form. They are absolutely vile.

OP posts:
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Flump8 · 06/12/2023 23:08

Or do you think that if Israel puts away its weapons for good, Hamas will settle down and leave them alone, and all will be well?
How does this work?

OuiOuiKitty · 06/12/2023 23:19

Flump8 · 06/12/2023 23:07

I am questioning what you mean by a ceasefire.

Do you mean that Israel should not defend itself against violent aggression? And simply leave its people at the mercy of a violent terrorist regime?

Or are your marches for creasefire directed towards Hamas?

If the marches have the intention of telling Hamas to stop their aggression, so that Israel has no need to defend itself, then I completely agree.

If they are directed solely towards Israel, then you are saying that Israel shouldn't be allowed to defend itself, and allow Hamas to do what it will with the land and its people.

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Of course it means both sides put down their weapons. What happens next is negotiation. Hamas have said they will do a deal on the 1967 borders, it is in their charter. There is a peace deal to be done. It wouldn't be easy but with concessions fron both sides it can be done. Not with Netanyahu in power obviously as he has made it clear he will not agree and he is funding more settlers in their West Bank take over but with time, a proper forward thinking leader and with help from the international community both sides can finally live in the peace that they deserve.

You are coming at it from the angle that Israelis are the only people living in daily fear, that applies to Palestinians too who have been terrorised and oppressed for decades by Israel. This isn't a one sided situation. There are 2 of them in it.

DuesToTheDirt · 06/12/2023 23:32

I've been mostly staying away from reading details of this conflict, but if pushed I would have said I was broadly pro-Palestinian (NB not pro-Hamas), as I think they have been harassed for years by the Israelis, and are now suffering numerous attacks against civilians.

However, a couple of days ago I read an article on the 7th October attacks by Hamas, with gang-rape, mutiliation, torture and mass murder, and it turned my stomach.

I can't see the conflict in the same way any more.

25milesfromhome · 06/12/2023 23:33

Livinginanotherworld · 06/12/2023 21:56

The Jewish Chronicle ? Yeah, very unbiased ffs ! Israel are making up more and more lies as the weeks go by, no credible independently verified sources.
If tens of thousands of men, women and children weren’t being murdered daily by the IDF, it would be laughable.

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So, any statement made by the doctor led medical division of the Israeli Health Ministry equals lies, any statement made by the Hamas led Gaza Health Ministry equals truth. You’re right, it is laughable. Also laughable- that the mention of a London based Jewish newspaper has riled you so much that you’ve chosen to make this the focus of your ire more than 24hrs after I posted it and many pages after the debate has moved on. @Totallymessed called it.

Katy231 · 06/12/2023 23:34

This reply has been deleted

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Humdingerydoo · 07/12/2023 00:04

@Katy231
"Their accuracy for Hamas at present is less than 1%."

What does that mean, and where did you get that statistic from? And of the 16000 dead, how many were combatants?

Limeandsodaontherocks · 07/12/2023 00:23

DuesToTheDirt · 06/12/2023 23:32

I've been mostly staying away from reading details of this conflict, but if pushed I would have said I was broadly pro-Palestinian (NB not pro-Hamas), as I think they have been harassed for years by the Israelis, and are now suffering numerous attacks against civilians.

However, a couple of days ago I read an article on the 7th October attacks by Hamas, with gang-rape, mutiliation, torture and mass murder, and it turned my stomach.

I can't see the conflict in the same way any more.

Yes . Since October 7th and the terrible images of Shani Louk and the other victims, I’ve found it very hard to see the conflict in the way I used to see it . Like you, I was sympathetic to Palestinians who have been oppressed for years. I’m still sympathetic to their suffering but After hearing of the full horror of October 7th I don’t have certainty about what would be a moral and just solution. It just all feels apocalyptic and terrifying. The only thing I know is that innocent people are suffering on both sides.

Limeandsodaontherocks · 07/12/2023 00:31

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

You don’t have anything to say about whether the marches ask Hamas to agree to a ceasefire? I think it’s a reasonable question…

Scirocco · 07/12/2023 08:08

Humdingerydoo · 07/12/2023 00:04

@Katy231
"Their accuracy for Hamas at present is less than 1%."

What does that mean, and where did you get that statistic from? And of the 16000 dead, how many were combatants?

Of the 16,000 dead (which is almost certainly an underestimate), over 6,000 have been children.

That's approximately 1 in 150 children in Gaza, and does not include children sustaining life-changing injuries such as traumatic amputations. It doesn't include children sustaining permanent scarring and psychological trauma. It's also likely to be an underestimate - many more children's bodies are likely underneath rubble and unreported if there's nobody left to report that they're there.

Now, Gaza is the most dangerous place in the world to be a child.

Rocket attacks into civilian areas are not reliable ways of targeting enemy combatants. Executing fleeing civilians is not targeting enemy combatants. Denying aid so that the most vulnerable members of a society are most severely affected is not targeting enemy combatants. Killing UN, WHO and MSF representatives who are there for humanitarian reasons is not targeting enemy combatants.

Humdingerydoo · 07/12/2023 09:06

Scirocco · 07/12/2023 08:08

Of the 16,000 dead (which is almost certainly an underestimate), over 6,000 have been children.

That's approximately 1 in 150 children in Gaza, and does not include children sustaining life-changing injuries such as traumatic amputations. It doesn't include children sustaining permanent scarring and psychological trauma. It's also likely to be an underestimate - many more children's bodies are likely underneath rubble and unreported if there's nobody left to report that they're there.

Now, Gaza is the most dangerous place in the world to be a child.

Rocket attacks into civilian areas are not reliable ways of targeting enemy combatants. Executing fleeing civilians is not targeting enemy combatants. Denying aid so that the most vulnerable members of a society are most severely affected is not targeting enemy combatants. Killing UN, WHO and MSF representatives who are there for humanitarian reasons is not targeting enemy combatants.

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Yes I know far too many children have died and suffered immeasurably these past two months, and will continue to do so after the war eventually ends. I don't think anyone is disputing that, or at least I'm not.

That's not what I was talking about or what I asked though. Where are the statistics coming from, and how many of the dead were combatants?

The reason I'm asking is because the numbers you are getting are from Hamas, a terrorist organisation, who don't distinguish between combatants and civilians. It serves their purpose very well for people to think that no or very few of their combatants have been killed and that all the casualties have been civilian. This is very far from the truth though, and I'm fed up of seeing manipulative lies being spread. It doesn't help anyone.

Also, there are reports from hostages that they were on occasion made to dress up in hijabs etc to escape the bombing. That means terrorists and their hostages were among those fleeing civilians who you say were being executed. So it is targeting enemy combatants, albeit with disastrous results.

I am only saying this to point out that things aren't as black and white as you and many other posters on here, and elsewhere, like to pretend. I am not saying it because I necessarily approve of IDF methods and I definitely don't approve of the outcome. I'm just trying to point out the impossible task Israel has been handed, and asking people to stop taking Hamas information at face value.

Scirocco · 07/12/2023 09:49

The 16,000 and 6,000 figures are at the lower end of estimates which are considered valid by the UN and WHO.

There are always going to be challenges in accurately assessing how many people who have been killed count as 'combatants'. It will be biased by who's doing the recording of the deaths. Nobody is going to dispute that. But over 6,000 children is horrific. And I've yet to see any estimates of Hamas fighters that suggest that ratio of children:adults among fighters. Which means that the current strategy is disproportionately attacking children.

The most 'favourable' ratio of civilian to Hamas fighter deaths I've seen was 2 civilians for every Hamas fighter killed. That was given by a senior Israeli figure who considered it to be "positive". In war, as I've said, estimates get skewed by both sides, and this figure could be reached through, for example, including anyone male, or anyone who tried to defend themselves or their families when soldiers appeared and they feared for their lives.

As a thought exercise, imagine 3 people, unknown to each other, standing in front of you - to reflect the estimated casualty ratios, make one of them a child and one a woman - now, would you be able to pull the trigger on a gun and shoot all three of those people if one of them was deemed to be a combatant? Would you feel this was ok? This is what's being presented as a "positive" ratio of killing civilians. Many of these civilians have no affiliation with any 'resistance' or terrorist group. They're being killed anyway.

My colleagues did not deserve to die. My friend's family did not deserve to be bombed - nobody should have to pick shrapnel out of a baby's face themselves because there's no way to get to a hospital.

There must be justice for October 7th. What happened was abhorrent. Justice cannot come at the cost of the obliteration of Gaza, the deaths of thousands of children, and even more murder and oppression in the West Bank. Justice cannot be overwhelmed by wrath, or where does this end? The world needs to find another way.

marvellousceiling · 07/12/2023 09:52

@Scirocco given the IDF's propensity for propaganda and failure to report accurate facts in the past I highly doubt their estimate on ratio of Hamas to civilians killed is anywhere close to the truth.

whereaw · 07/12/2023 09:54

I personally feel like the world is all to blame for not stepping in and helping the Israeli's to destroy the evil of Hamas whilst also helping innocent children (and others) to escape to safety. We should all have our troops on the ground in this situation, and we are all at fault.

Scirocco · 07/12/2023 09:56

marvellousceiling · 07/12/2023 09:52

@Scirocco given the IDF's propensity for propaganda and failure to report accurate facts in the past I highly doubt their estimate on ratio of Hamas to civilians killed is anywhere close to the truth.

I agree. I'm giving it as an example of what they are saying is 'favourable'. That's the ratio that someone has used in propaganda in which they'll want to make their figures look as good as possible. Even the IDF's own 'positive' spin is giving horrific casualties and that's what they've gone on international media to promote as a good thing... Which means the reality is worse.

Katy231 · 07/12/2023 15:20

Scirocco · 07/12/2023 09:49

The 16,000 and 6,000 figures are at the lower end of estimates which are considered valid by the UN and WHO.

There are always going to be challenges in accurately assessing how many people who have been killed count as 'combatants'. It will be biased by who's doing the recording of the deaths. Nobody is going to dispute that. But over 6,000 children is horrific. And I've yet to see any estimates of Hamas fighters that suggest that ratio of children:adults among fighters. Which means that the current strategy is disproportionately attacking children.

The most 'favourable' ratio of civilian to Hamas fighter deaths I've seen was 2 civilians for every Hamas fighter killed. That was given by a senior Israeli figure who considered it to be "positive". In war, as I've said, estimates get skewed by both sides, and this figure could be reached through, for example, including anyone male, or anyone who tried to defend themselves or their families when soldiers appeared and they feared for their lives.

As a thought exercise, imagine 3 people, unknown to each other, standing in front of you - to reflect the estimated casualty ratios, make one of them a child and one a woman - now, would you be able to pull the trigger on a gun and shoot all three of those people if one of them was deemed to be a combatant? Would you feel this was ok? This is what's being presented as a "positive" ratio of killing civilians. Many of these civilians have no affiliation with any 'resistance' or terrorist group. They're being killed anyway.

My colleagues did not deserve to die. My friend's family did not deserve to be bombed - nobody should have to pick shrapnel out of a baby's face themselves because there's no way to get to a hospital.

There must be justice for October 7th. What happened was abhorrent. Justice cannot come at the cost of the obliteration of Gaza, the deaths of thousands of children, and even more murder and oppression in the West Bank. Justice cannot be overwhelmed by wrath, or where does this end? The world needs to find another way.

2 civilians for every Hamas fighter killed? ... That can't be further from the truth. Are you counting children and women as Hamas fighters? Those under 5 perhaps?

Scirocco · 07/12/2023 15:36

@Katy231 I don't for one minute consider that figure to be accurate. I'm not counting anyone.

That is the figure given by a senior person in the Israeli armed forces, in interviews with international media. If you've read my post, I've actually said in it that data gets skewed, and may indeed be reached by the IDF, for example, saying they'll class all male casualties as fighters, or anyone who tries to defend themselves. I do not think it is an accurate ratio and it certainly doesn't reflect the data and eyewitness accounts coming from Gaza.

The true horror of that 'estimate' is that this is a figure that was considered 'acceptable' and justifiable enough to trot out in interviews with major news outlets. And people aren't horrified anyway. People should be horrified by that figure - and it's horrifying to think that there are truly people out there who are ok with it, even knowing that the reality is far, far worse.

In war and humanitarian crises, the most reliable sources of estimates of casualties are independent parties such as the UN and WHO, who, as I've said, have accepted the validity of the casualty estimates of over 16,000 deaths of which over 6,000 have been children.

Livinginanotherworld · 07/12/2023 15:36

25milesfromhome · 06/12/2023 23:33

So, any statement made by the doctor led medical division of the Israeli Health Ministry equals lies, any statement made by the Hamas led Gaza Health Ministry equals truth. You’re right, it is laughable. Also laughable- that the mention of a London based Jewish newspaper has riled you so much that you’ve chosen to make this the focus of your ire more than 24hrs after I posted it and many pages after the debate has moved on. @Totallymessed called it.

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Called what ? I don’t just sit on mn for 24 hours to respond to posts immediately. I was catching up actually. And yes,we were talking about independent news reports, the Jewish Chronicle are not independent and nor would I expect them to be.

XRAYTHIS · 08/12/2023 12:24

BF1989 · 08/12/2023 12:10

https://www.instagram.com/p/C0kkXwrtoTn/?igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==

… and people think Hamas is the problem.

Do you not think that Hamas is a problem? Other wrongs do not make Hamas not a problem. Their aims haven't helped the ordinary Palestinian civilian at all.

backtowinter · 08/12/2023 20:13

BF1989 · 08/12/2023 12:10

https://www.instagram.com/p/C0kkXwrtoTn/?igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==

… and people think Hamas is the problem.

Hamas is the problem 🤷🏻‍♀️

HeidiInTheBigCity · 08/12/2023 20:59

backtowinter · 08/12/2023 20:13

Hamas is the problem 🤷🏻‍♀️

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The occupation is the root cause, though!

Trulywonderful · 08/12/2023 21:42

If only it was that simple

basculin · 08/12/2023 21:43

backtowinter · 08/12/2023 20:13

Hamas is the problem 🤷🏻‍♀️

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You don't think Hamas is a problem?