Documenting the horror that is Hamas

[Brumbies]

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I agree hatred driven by indoctrination as seen with teaching very young children to hate which has been going on before this current war.

The Germans once completely defeated concentrated on rebuilding not on indoctrination of their children to hate. They moved forward. As did the uk who could have hated due to the massive blitz, or the French due to being invaded, or the Polish etc etc etc all moved forward without the continuing hatred. But hamas have to go to enable that.

I think Hamas is too far gone in hatred to enable future peace, I think they either should be removed from leadership or convinced to step aside.

West Germans couldn’t have made the progress they did with Hitler and the Nazis still in charge.

So, it’s two things in my opinion. One you need a lasting ceasfire where all hostilities stop. You need to ensure that no matter what bubbles under the surface, everyone agrees there is no military solution.

Once the appearance of peace is established, then the populace can focus on rebuilding and beating down hatred towards former enemies. But it will need new leadership.

The same goes for Israel’s PM Nethanyu and his right wing ultra nationalist government btw, they are too deep into hatred and a new more moderate government needs to be elected to take Israel forward in a way that ensures peace and security.

@Hellenika I agree with the above too, I can see how Netanyahu can be removed after the next elections although I'm not sure about other right wing elements in government but I don't know much about Israeli politics.

But what do you think will happen with Hamas? They don't seem to be even close to defeated despite the extremely heavy bombardment and on the ground fighting. And I haven't seen any indication that they are willing to stand down. That's my main concern

Also this next part is purely speculation but could there be recruitment of fighters right now during the war aswell? I can see how easily it could happen. Men who have lost most of their families, homes and livelihood, have a choice of trying to survive or get revenge on those who they believe have taken everything away from them and rendered their life worthless. It's a dangerous combination
All I see is the continuation of the cycle of violence and I can't see as much effort from the international community to break it. The only sort of hope right now is the egypt proposal but I don't know if there has been much progress with that

However if they do end up still in control of Gaza it does matter

What I could not make the other poster understand, probably because they just did not want to was this:

Hamas needs to accept Israel as a State for there to be any chance of long term peace in the area

If Hamas don't agree borders and declare themselves a state plus recognise Israel as a State the long term future is more conflict

It is no different to Israel not recognising Palestine as a State if Hamas finally agree borders and declare a State

Both need to agree to accept each other and whatever borders are agreed.

There is no use agreeing borders if they don't recognise each others right to exsist.

Obviously if Hamas are not in control after this latest conflict then the same goes for the PO or whatever Arab party or Co op of states take over

The last 75 years of conflict has been about the Arab states over the years or whoever was leading the Arabs on the land not recognising Israel as a State. There may be valid reasons for this as far as they are concerned. However it has kept the conflict going and it won't end unless this decision is changed. It is a decision that means they will continue to try to dismantle Israel by all means necessary including violent attacks and rockets.

An early Happy New Year to you all xxxx

And a present for later just tap on it

See you in 2024 😘

Happy New Year Truly! 🙂

Let's hope 2024 is better for everyone (except Hamas, obviously.)

Happy new year from Hamas

I saw this.

Hamas firing rockets into Israel emmasse. They don't much look like they want a ceasefire. They don't look much like they care about women and
children of Gaza.

They must be defeated.

@Trulywonderful yes I completely agree - if there's some awful behind-the-scenes realpolitik and they do wind up with a post-war stake in Gaza then unless they accept the State of Israel and launch no further attacks this will just be rinse and repeat.

Similarly I don't think Netanyahu and Likud will make a good post-conflict partner for peace, or any of the more right-wing parties that have their own river-to-the-sea beliefs.

An all out change needs to happen to move forward.

Japan was also badly defeated in WWII. one of the lessons we learnt from WWI was that massive reparations on German after it lost WWI was one of the causes of WWII. I think it was the Treaty of Versailles. So after WWII we tried not to do the same again to Germany.

I don't think anyone has ever said every Palestinian is like ISIS. However some are and Hamas is a banned terrorist organisation in the UK. Someone above said Palestinians do not see their women as "brood mares" - their words not mine. I agree - there are lot of well educated palestinians but again not all and it has one of the youngest populations on the planet so it is probably the country where women bear loads of children (half the people in Gaza are under 18) so there are certainly a lot of children. It is a very interesting issue because usually very well educated women work and then have fewer children. https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn25993-the-reasons-why-gazas-population-is-so-young/

This, for some balance, is from Reuters ( my bolding):

Rockets fired from Gaza raced toward central Israel overnight, triggering sirens throughout the central and southern parts of the country. Israeli media carried footage of numerous interceptions. There were no reports of any direct hits.

Israel pounds Gaza, Hamas fires rockets as Netanyahu indicates long war
By Nidal Al-Mughrabi, Arafat Barbakh and Dan Williams
December 31, 202311:23 PM GMT
https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/netanyahu-says-israel-must-control-gazas-border-with-egypt-war-last-months-2023-12-31/

From the BBC news today:

Some 21,978 people - mostly women and children - have been killed in Gaza since 7 October, according to the Hamas-run health ministry. It said 56,697 people in Gaza had been wounded over the same period.

The figures include 156 people killed and 246 injured in the last 24 hours, the ministry added.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67855117

They are rather dreadful aren't they. Hopefully the people saying that they won't survive the next election are right. Both sides need leaders that know how to put as much of the past as possible behind them and look towards the future for their people. To find a way that everyone can live in peace and safety.

Re Palestinian women’s education, I thought this was interesting and a sign of hope - 94 percent literacy is excellent, and more Palestinian women than men in university is a surprise ( to me anyway).

Palestinian women are among the most educated in the Middle East. They have a 94 percent literacy rate and go to primary school just as often as boys do. Palestinian girls consistently outscore their male peers in Tawhiji testing. In the 2006 school year, 14,064 more Palestinian women were enrolled in university than Palestinian men. Compared to the situations for women in Yemen, Egypt or Afghanistan, girls’ education in Palestine is thriving. However, there are still some obstacles to overcome.

borgenproject.org/the-state-of-girls-education-in-palestine/

Just for some balance... Israel chooses to spend money on defence and Hamas... doesn't.
Much like numerous other essentials when your waging war on someone.

Just for some balance... Israel chooses to spend money on defence and Hamas... doesn't.

Quite. The mercifully few civilian deaths in Israel from Hamas rockets are due to measures taken by Israel - Iron Dome, bomb shelters - and certainly not thanks to any effort from Hamas to mitigate civilian casualties (including Palestinian when the rockets misfire).

I don’t think Israel could manage without the mega-power that is the USA do you?

The USA gifted the Iron Dome to Israel. Israel didn’t pay for it. The same with most of Israel’s weapons, vehicles, planes, and so on. The United States gives Israel $3.8 billion in military aid annually, ranging from fighter jets to powerful bombs that could destroy Hamas tunnels, and the Biden administration has asked Congress to approve an additional $14 billion.
https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/despite-gaza-death-toll-soaring-us-unlikely-rethink-weapons-supplies-israel-2023-12-05/

It’s not speculation as it is based on history learned when fighting other terrorist organisations. Pretty much all nations that have fought terrorists have observed and studied the fact that the more civilian casualties you cause while fighting terrorists, the more future terrorists you are creating. There are othe4 factors as well, with drone strikes (which IDF do use 24/7 in Gaza) ranking as worse than piloted air strikes for this effect.

The US well knows this too, so I wonder at the collective amnesia? Unless they really don’t care about Israel and the safety of a Jewish nation and it is all about having sacrificial lambs fighting and dying in the ME so the US can own by proxy some corner of it.

“For example, research from Pakistan published in 2019 shows that drone strikes “are suggested to encourage terrorism” and “to increase anti-US sentiment and radicalization.” Similarly, one 2020 study found that terrorists were more likely to increase their attacks in the months after a deadly drone strike. Put more bluntly, RPA strikes “radicalize civilians faster than they kill terrorists.” https://www.csis.org/analysis/counterterrorism-sky-how-think-over-horizon-about-drones

A ”2009 CIA study lends support to critics of US drone strikes in Afghanistan, Iraq, Pakistan, Somalia and Yemen by warning that such operations "may increase support for the insurgents, particularly if these strikes enhance insurgent leaders' lore, if non-combatants are killed in the attacks, if legitimate or semi-legitimate politicians aligned with the insurgents are targeted, or if the government is already seen as overly repressive or violent".
https://www.smh.com.au/world/drone-strikes-counterproductive-says-secret-cia-report-20141218-129ynq.html

The USA gifted the Iron Dome to Israel. Israel didn’t pay for it.

The wealth amassed by Hamas senior leadership is gifted from outwith the country too. However they did not choose to use these funds for improving the safety and security of Gazan civilians.

There is the small matter of the Israeli land, air and sea blockade preventing Hamas from importing a system like the Iron Dome or even the permits and materials to construct bomb shelters (there is also not enough room to construct bomb shelters for 2 million plus people without collapsing the entire Gaza Strip into the sea).

The wealth Hamas amassed was via illegal black market financing. They didn’t get any aid money.

I do mean USA gifted the entire system. Not the money for it that Israel then chose to spend. The technology, all of it exported in a plug and play fashion like shipping a PS5.

Always an answer for why Hamas bears no responsibilty for the absolute disaster that has been their leadership tenure of Gaza.