Page 22 | Documenting the horror that is Hamas

stomachamaleon · 27/12/2023 21:32

@SomeCatFromJapan not an actual threat though like a massacre. Thankfully hamas' charter covers that.

stomachamaleon · 27/12/2023 21:34

And an exploitative headline with no evidence.
You could just apologise for getting it wrong @ritenuto instead of digging in.
Novel idea.

25milesfromhome · 27/12/2023 21:40

ritenuto · 27/12/2023 21:27

The language and framing you’re using is deliberately calculated to confirm bias

The language I’m using is plain English.

At the height of the Black Lives Matter movement during the pandemic, whilst we were all locked down in our homes, I paid attention and spent the following year devouring black history, reading black authors, watching documentaries, attending exhibitions in the preceding years, and educating my kids about a history that wasn’t spoken about.

The week following October 7th this year, I put the Israeli flag on my profile pics to show my support for the grieving. I was utterly horrified. I had made sure my kids were reading age-appropriate Holocaust literature from Year 5 (and argued with a teacher that The Boy in the Striped Pyjamas was racist in that it gave the German child a voice and a story/life, but not the Jewish child in the camp). I admitted, like many, I found the details of the ‘conflict’ confusing. So I started reading and listening. I have read Israeli historians amongst others, and books about antisemitism. But what struck me strongly was the courage of so many Jews that have taken a stand and risked alienation from friends and family, from their communities, to speak out against Israel.

These courageous individuals will be shut down as ‘self-hating’ Jews, again, another odd device like the slogans that are thrown at anyone who disagrees. It’s such a hurtful and hateful
thing to do- if one shows their humanity then they must hate themselves. It is of course non-sensical. But then again so is much of the censorship tactics. I have read so much that it is the policies of Israel that are the real threat to Jews and what makes them feel unsafe- not the Palestinians.

And popping a little tokenizing Jews and blaming Israel for the rise in antisemitism into the mix there. Nice.

25milesfromhome · 27/12/2023 21:43

Trulywonderful · 27/12/2023 20:43

@25milesfromhome to be fair a Hezbollah anti-tank missile hit a church in northern Israel over Christmas. I don't think anyone died but 10 people were injured. Maybe people have got muddled up with that somehow. It is like social media twisted whispers out there at the moment.

I think some of the less informed amongst us seem to be getting the geography of the area a bit mixed up and are heavily in denial about who else have been firing missiles.

Trulywonderful · 27/12/2023 21:55

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headstone · 27/12/2023 22:01

The Israeli embassy in Seoul also see a bit confused by geography as well with their made up video about Hamas attacking Seoul on Christmas Day.

25milesfromhome · 27/12/2023 22:04

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Trulywonderful · 27/12/2023 22:10

headstone · 27/12/2023 22:01

The Israeli embassy in Seoul also see a bit confused by geography as well with their made up video about Hamas attacking Seoul on Christmas Day.

Not in the best taste and could start a panic but I can imagine they were feeling frustrated about people not thinking they would react differently if it happened to them or something

No idea really and not to bothered about what an Israeli embassy does with to much spare time on its hands over Christmas

Those Jedi settlers in Gaza mind they are something else entirely. I may start a petition or my own resistance campaign. It simply isn't on is it.

ritenuto · 27/12/2023 22:13

25milesfromhome · 27/12/2023 21:40

And popping a little tokenizing Jews and blaming Israel for the rise in antisemitism into the mix there. Nice.

Show quote history

No - it is to illustrate how someone who was not previously engaged with this topic is responding in light of all the bias in the west against Palestinians.

Sometimes it is useful to speak to people outside of your usual circles where you are all repeating the same thing to each other (as some of you have mentioned that you do). I feel the liberation movements that have come before will bring to bear on how this is viewed. We didn’t have the language for it in 1948 - but we do now. Bias exists depending on which prism you are seeing it through/have been brought up to see it through.

Many find the conflation of the state of Israel with Jewish identity harmful - that is not new. Israel does not equal Judaism, in the same way the UK does not equal Christianity.

Natalie Rothman and Nora Rantisi, both Canadian academics, one a Jewish historian whose family was taken hostage by Hamas, and the other a geographer with family in the West Bank, gave an interview shortly after the attacks. It’s their recognition of our common humanity that is striking a chord with so many:

’We must recognise anti-semitism is on the rise and 7 Oct was a heinous act and has been felt by Jews all over the world- how can we have this conversation by taking into account the very real fears felt by Jews?

We are not safe until everyone is safe and everyone is liberated, and to me the rise in anti-semitism is directly linked to rise in right wing white supremacism nationalism and authoritarian facist regimes around the world, and that then the only way we can protect ourselves is by being in solidarity with and committing ourselves to being against injustice where ever it is, committing to never again, and not just never again for Jews.

I find the actions of some pro-Israeli activists deeply irresponsible in perpetuating really pernicious ideas about all Jews supporting Israel because actually that really makes me unsafe, that makes a lot of people in the Diaspora feel that their identity is called into question and that their own right to exist is being called into question and ultimately as Israel continues to implement apartheid and genocide with impunity, that makes everyone unsafe, and especially the people who are under the boot of this regime, so to me these are not separate issues. I think the threat to Jewish life comes from right wing supremacists first and foremost and that’s the struggle we need to unite against, rather than call into question our ability to be in solidarity with the Palestinians and call for freedom in Palestine.’

Trulywonderful · 27/12/2023 22:14

😂They deleted an obviously made up post taking the piss out of the lack of middle eastern geography and current event know seen on this thread today. Yet still let some of these other posts stay. That is beyond hilarious. Love it, that has totally made my night. Truly wonderful and comical deletion from mumsnet😂

stomachamaleon · 27/12/2023 22:14

@Trulywonderful I don't know what your talking about sorry.

25milesfromhome · 27/12/2023 22:17

Trulywonderful · 27/12/2023 22:14

😂They deleted an obviously made up post taking the piss out of the lack of middle eastern geography and current event know seen on this thread today. Yet still let some of these other posts stay. That is beyond hilarious. Love it, that has totally made my night. Truly wonderful and comical deletion from mumsnet😂

I did laugh. Those Jedi settlers are deeply problematic.

Trulywonderful · 27/12/2023 22:21

stomachamaleon · 27/12/2023 22:14

@Trulywonderful I don't know what your talking about sorry.

You missed a treat, even if I do say so myself

Only wished I screenshot my own post before they deleted it

(Giraffe will turn up in a bit to tell me I am being big headed again but I don't care)

stomachamaleon · 27/12/2023 22:22

@ritenuto there is a lot of 'I think' and ' you' In that monologue but thanks for that and telling me who to blame both here and abroad.
I blame the left wing and their deeply entrenched antisemitism wrapped up in virtue signalling.
I blame Hamas.
I Don't need to keep going over the same things.

I am not sure why Jews supporting Israel makes you unsafe in case you would like to elaborate?

Trulywonderful · 27/12/2023 22:24

25milesfromhome · 27/12/2023 22:17

I did laugh. Those Jedi settlers are deeply problematic.

Show quote history

You and I will forever have the bond of our knowledge of Jedi settlers and our joint dislike of them, from this day forward

25milesfromhome · 27/12/2023 22:28

@Trulywonderful I will treasure this bond.

25milesfromhome · 27/12/2023 22:30

ritenuto · 27/12/2023 22:13

No - it is to illustrate how someone who was not previously engaged with this topic is responding in light of all the bias in the west against Palestinians.

Sometimes it is useful to speak to people outside of your usual circles where you are all repeating the same thing to each other (as some of you have mentioned that you do). I feel the liberation movements that have come before will bring to bear on how this is viewed. We didn’t have the language for it in 1948 - but we do now. Bias exists depending on which prism you are seeing it through/have been brought up to see it through.

Many find the conflation of the state of Israel with Jewish identity harmful - that is not new. Israel does not equal Judaism, in the same way the UK does not equal Christianity.

Natalie Rothman and Nora Rantisi, both Canadian academics, one a Jewish historian whose family was taken hostage by Hamas, and the other a geographer with family in the West Bank, gave an interview shortly after the attacks. It’s their recognition of our common humanity that is striking a chord with so many:

’We must recognise anti-semitism is on the rise and 7 Oct was a heinous act and has been felt by Jews all over the world- how can we have this conversation by taking into account the very real fears felt by Jews?

We are not safe until everyone is safe and everyone is liberated, and to me the rise in anti-semitism is directly linked to rise in right wing white supremacism nationalism and authoritarian facist regimes around the world, and that then the only way we can protect ourselves is by being in solidarity with and committing ourselves to being against injustice where ever it is, committing to never again, and not just never again for Jews.

I find the actions of some pro-Israeli activists deeply irresponsible in perpetuating really pernicious ideas about all Jews supporting Israel because actually that really makes me unsafe, that makes a lot of people in the Diaspora feel that their identity is called into question and that their own right to exist is being called into question and ultimately as Israel continues to implement apartheid and genocide with impunity, that makes everyone unsafe, and especially the people who are under the boot of this regime, so to me these are not separate issues. I think the threat to Jewish life comes from right wing supremacists first and foremost and that’s the struggle we need to unite against, rather than call into question our ability to be in solidarity with the Palestinians and call for freedom in Palestine.’

Show quote history

Goodness me, what a word salad. Just because some people are new to this topic (and have an extremely rudimentary understanding of it, evidently gleaned from some very biased sources) doesn’t mean the people they’re attempting to lecture are equally new to it.

ritenuto · 27/12/2023 22:38

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Trulywonderful · 27/12/2023 22:50

"Jews are"

Oh that isn't going to go down well when some people start looking at mumsnet once less busy with the holidays

I would edit that quickly if you can. Not everyone agrees with the use of Jews said in that sentence type context and especially by someone not Jewish.

Just warning you

XRAYTHIS · 27/12/2023 22:54

ritenuto · 27/12/2023 21:32

No- he said he speaks as a Palestinian, and both Muslims and Christians are Palestinians oppressed under the occupation and apartheid.

Show quote history

He's wearing his reverend clothing and if he works for the church then surely he follows his holy book.

In any event when is a 'mere man' allowed to decide forgiveness. He's making himself judge and jury.

stomachamaleon · 27/12/2023 22:56

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XRAYTHIS · 27/12/2023 22:56

Trulywonderful · 27/12/2023 22:24

You and I will forever have the bond of our knowledge of Jedi settlers and our joint dislike of them, from this day forward

Show quote history

Oh my, the Jedi have landed 🤣

SomeCatFromJapan · 27/12/2023 23:10

think the threat to Jewish life comes from right wing supremacists first and foremost

Yes absolutely, the worst terrorist attack in Israeli history in October was by r... oh hang on, no. It was Hamas.

But wait, maybe it's right wing supremacists firing their daily barrage of rockets at Israel?
Oh no wait, that's Hamas again! And their pals Hezbollah. And their other pals the Houthis.

Unless that's what you mean by right wing supremisists? None of them are exactly the progressive left.

But perhaps you mean Europe? We should look for instance at France. Perhaps it's right wing extremists murdering Jewish people there?

Again, no, as it turns out.

If you want to make an assertion like that you need to back it up with evidence. Not just state your world view as a fact.

Trulywonderful · 27/12/2023 23:18

@SomeCatFromJapan
I must remember to never get on the wrong side of you honey. You give an amusing to read but good arse slapping sometimes

etmoiandme · 27/12/2023 23:31

This link to a twitter post is quite graphic and really, really upsetting so be warned.

This British lady's husband has a cousin still being held hostage, who watched his own family being slaughtered. I think a few people around these threads should watch it, especially the Hamas apologists and minimisers of 7/10.

https://twitter.com/HeidiBachram/status/1740131202257084513